**PLEASE READ** my proposal for the combat system

[The Industriallist]

Well, shouldn't a well armed, and strong, accurate, soldier be able to kill one unshielded person in a day?

IRL, in one minute. In cantr...no way. Particularly not since this is in one minute. No way for anyone to react. Think about the boats...

I was going to suggest lowering the hit rate to once per (cantr) hour, That would still limit the attacks but maybe start a bit of back and forth fights rather than the hit everybody and run tactic. Maybe you could only eat healing foods at the same rate too, would that stop a well stocked assailant from instantly healing him/herself?

But it would still be beneficial to those who log on frequently during the day, and to those in different time zones who effectively have maybe 2-3 three free hits a day.

2-3? I would be able to hit 6 times, many day, while a perfectly good once-per-day player would get at most two shots.. THat hardly strikes me as any kind of good idea.

You saw the problem...but I think that should kill the idea soundly.

I do like Solfius' idea...though it turns the established combat tactics of cantr entirely on their head, which can't be good from a continuity perspective. But I do think that would be a much better fighting system in general.

[rklenseth]

Now that we have tiredness I would do away with the one attack per day per target all together. It is an old fossil that isn't needed anymore in my opinion.

Disagree violently. Without it you'd see instant, single-handed kills with high-end weapons...and if you throw in a cot you could probably do one at least every other day.

I agree with your second proposal. I would take it a step further and include tools as well plus when characters are working with a machine they can't be holding anything but the tools needed. I would also like to see the ability to equip a weapon or shield while holding a tool or working on a machine and have a chance for a person to stop the project automatically and take out the weapon and/or shield to block/parry the attack. But by doing so, the project would be stopped and the player would have to manually have his/her character begin working on the project again. I wouldn't allow this until we are able to equip armor though.

That's terrible. First, you make people who aren't too active less able to defend themselves than they are already. Then you set it up so that by using the ameliorating feature you give a potential production advantage to people who log in many times a day.

Is there really a need to make life even harder on characters with active lifestyles and less-active players?

First point, I would like to see single handed kills. In fact that would be an improvement. On top of that someone might be able to kill someone but then they will be so tired that people who attack him afterwards would most likely kill him or weaken him enough to drag him away to a prison. Numbers would be still more powerful than one person. And if you're not getting on at least once everyday then you really shouldn't be playing this game.


Second point, active people will always have a much higher advantage than less active people. But right now, this aspect of the combat system is totally unrealistic. If you're working on digging or on a machine or farming you shouldn't be wielding a shield or weapon at the same time. This is one way to fix that. You have two hands. You can equip things like clothing to those two hands. Some objects you can use one hand, other objects may take two hands.

[Solfius]

ooo ooo, another reason to add equiping: it makes calculating used based degradation an awful lot easier.

The question would how to handle the change overs, ie, you unequip your tool, equip a weapon,attack and reequip the tool and go back to work.

The not being able to use a tool and shield at the same time would help. everyone ups tools and bares their steel/iron to protect themselves.

Instant kills, IMO, are a little bit of a contraversial area, as although realistic, how easy would it be for a one hit kill on your favourite character from some wandering theif (the type which aren't well played, just moving around trying their luck playing as if it's a hack'n'slash dungeon crawl: if there's not many now I'm sure the number would increase if one hit kills came in).

It's a Cantr ethical question: when it takes so long to achieve something is it a good idea to let the player lose it so fast potentially?

Also considering that Cantr is generally a slow paced game I think it is a little out of character.

That's why my reasoning as to why I'd be very cautious about one hit kills.

[rklenseth]

Instant kills should be possible (rare but possible) as well as the chance to get in a mortal wound where the character doesn't die instantly but over time but I wasn't getting at one hit kills. I mean if a character wants to exert all of his/her energy in attacking one character in order to kill them then they should be able to. But by doing so would leave the character vulnerable and weak to attacks and capture from other characters who may not want such attacks.

I'll agree that if a character is attack and they are carrying a shield and/or weapon while do a project then can drop the project (based on chance) and try to block or parry the attack and after the attack is offer they put away the shield and weapon and continue their project.

[Solfius]

sorry, I meant that switching over like that seems to defeat the object a little.

But if you only have 2 hands (weapon and a shield), then it's up to you what combinations you equip, and whther to work or be protected. I don't think you can work whilst carrying a sheild, but that makes everyone very vunerable to attacks whilst they sleep.

[The Industriallist]

So, here's the problem with equipping...and it comes back to the same issue that cantrians sleep about 22 hours a day.

IRL, if you're out working in the field, quarry, whatever...and you brought your shield and weapons with you...you have a chance to try to defend yourself as someone charges up and attacks you. Maybe not as good as if you were standing ready to fight, but still a reasonable chance.

In cantr, you'd have no chance at all. And if you stack that with the possibility of 'instant' kills, you come to the conclusion that any outdoor task requiring two hands makes you open to sudden death. On a coastline, you'd have to be insane to do any such project.

[Black Canyon]

Ahhhhhhh!!! You guys are scary

I say NO to instant single handed kills and NO to equipping!

[Razorlance]

I was going to suggest lowering the hit rate to once per (cantr) hour, That would still limit the attacks but maybe start a bit of back and forth fights rather than the hit everybody and run tactic. Maybe you could only eat healing foods at the same rate too, would that stop a well stocked assailant from instantly healing him/herself?

But it would still be beneficial to those who log on frequently during the day, and to those in different time zones who effectively have maybe 2-3 three free hits a day.

2-3? I would be able to hit 6 times, many day, while a perfectly good once-per-day player would get at most two shots.. THat hardly strikes me as any kind of good idea.

You saw the problem...but I think that should kill the idea soundly.

What I meant was if the hit rate was once per hour and there are only 8 cantr hours in a day, at any one time one particular timezone would be asleep, and so wouldn't retaliate for maybe 2-3 cantr hours. Granted not every charrie in a location is from the same timezone, but it would still benefit the more active players.

And yes I did see the problem, hence the past tense in my first sentence, but I thought it might be a good compromise between one hit a day and unlimited hits per day and wanted to see what others thought.

Then again I don't have any pirate/thief/murderer type characters so I don't really know how effective or ineffective the tiredness system would be with unlimited attacks.

[Solfius]

perhaps it could be possible to work with a shield equipped, but it would hamper you (be honest, could you work effectively whilst holding a shield?)

I like the idea of equipping as it means degredation can be made more realistic (only applying use based degredation to equipped items).

The Industrialist has pointed out the problem with doing this in the current system, but I envisage a system where combat is turn based, thus giving more warning time (as you won't hit right away, and to balance damage values would have to be lowered as fighters would be striking 8 times a day rather than all at once).

uhh, there was some more, but I forgot it

[Appleide]

perhaps it could be possible to work with a shield equipped, but it would hamper you (be honest, could you work effectively whilst holding a shield?)

Just introduce armour!

[The Industriallist]

perhaps it could be possible to work with a shield equipped, but it would hamper you (be honest, could you work effectively whilst holding a shield?)

No, but I could work very well with a shield sitting on the ground next to me...and pick it up quite fast if need be.

The Industrialist has pointed out the problem with doing this in the current system, but I envisage a system where combat is turn based, thus giving more warning time (as you won't hit right away, and to balance damage values would have to be lowered as fighters would be striking 8 times a day rather than all at once).

You'd still be taken devastatingly by surprise if you didn't have any defenses ready, and weren't awake to bring them up. If no one were around to come to your aid, it would be as bad as with current hitting once per day, assuming your attacker timed for right after you (a once-a-day player, of course) fell asleep.

>Appleide
After all, it's so easy to reap a field of corn in chain mail...
I wouldn't much mind if it were IC...but that doesn't bypass the RL issue any.

[The Sociologist]

perhaps it could be possible to work with a shield equipped, but it would hamper you (be honest, could you work effectively whilst holding a shield?)

No, but I could work very well with a shield sitting on the ground next to me...and pick it up quite fast if need be.

I agree with The Industriallist.

The Industrialist has pointed out the problem with doing this in the current system, but I envisage a system where combat is turn based, thus giving more warning time (as you won't hit right away, and to balance damage values would have to be lowered as fighters would be striking 8 times a day rather than all at once).

You'd still be taken devastatingly by surprise if you didn't have any defenses ready, and weren't awake to bring them up. If no one were around to come to your aid, it would be as bad as with current hitting once per day, assuming your attacker timed for right after you (a once-a-day player, of course) fell asleep.

I agree with The Industriallist.

I oppose multiple hits/day and "equipping."

My only comment, and I've posted this before, is that it would be preferable if tiredness didn't affect the first number of shots against any targets, though with the one-hit/day rule still in force. In other words, tiredness of less than say 50% or so should have no effect on combat.

That way, you have some chance that four charries could do some kind of damage against another four charries without the whole bunch having to run home to bed after the second day. At the moment wars are almost ruled out, or at least are reduced to "dragging contests" where whoever can secure the keys on the first day wins.

In the wars I witnessed before the "tiredness system," the senior charries who tended to get offed were those who slept most of the week. So they deserved what they got. The "tiredness system" has given the players of such charries a ludicrous degree of protection. But what is now being proposed re "turn-based" and "equipping" is no solution whatsoever to this problem.

[The Industriallist]

Since I love tactical kibitzing...

The way to conduct that fight would be all of you attack the same target, and ignore the other three. That way your fatigue doesn't go too dangerously high, and you do some real damage to one of your targets.

At least, that's my take on it.

[rklenseth]

All right, I've seen two arguments here. One that it will negatively affect inactive characters and one that it will negatively affect active characters. So which is it?

Lets get to the nitty, gritty details here. How will having objects equiped to characters negatively affect the aspects of the game in an unrealistic fashion?

How will having characters being allowed to attack whenever their tiredness allows rather than unrealistically limiting how many attacks they can make per day on an individual target by some godly forces?

[Bran-Muffin]

This entire thread needs to disappear....

You all need to think about the less active people, they wouldnt have characters left if those things were put in.