A way to substitute tools for each other

[SekoETC]

Code: Select all

item      group   finesse   power
======================================
stone hammer   hammer   0.4   0.4
hammer      hammer   0.5   0.5
peen hammer   hammer   1   0.3
sledgehammer   hammer   0.1   1
axe      axe   0.2   1
stone axe   axe   0.6   0.5
hatchet      axe   1   0.6
battle axe   axe   0.8   0.7
stone cleaver   axe   0.1   0.1
knife      knife   0.8   1
bone knife   knife   0.3   0.5
bronze knife   knife   0.8   0.8
carving knife   knife   1   0.9
dagger      knife   0.5   1

Items could belong to several groups. For example there could be a rule named "hole-making instruments" where finesse would describe wether the hole is straight and neat or crude and conical (and thus damaging the area around the hole, making it look bigger) and power would say how well the item bites. Something like a diamond drill would be the most powerful and most likely the most accurate as well. A needle would be accurate but very weak. A carving knife would have more power but less finesse.

Generic tool requirements could be substituted instead of exact ones. There could be minimum finesse or power that would rule out the crudest/weakest tools if needed. But the point is to allow people to use what they have and improve when they have the resources for it rather than not doing anything because there is no project for using different tools.

Some tools could affect visual quality, some could affect work speed, some physical quality (sharpness damage; deterioration speed). That would support having several hammers in smithing for example. But it should be possible to get the job done even if you didn't have the optimal tools. Like making a sword with just a sledgehammer, it wouldn't look nice and it wouldn't be the sharpest in the world, but it would still be of steel and it would function at least for crushing if not for cutting.

This way items made with a stone hammer would often be more crude than those made with a steel hammer, and the steel hammer could be used for more projects since there would no longer be a dire need to include a peen hammer into anything, just to make sure that savages couldn't produce the item in question.

[Nakranoth]

Honestly, I like the idea... but I think for it to be properly implimented, we need more individualizeable stats on items... so a crudely blade actually does less damage (by applying a negative percent modifier?) while exceptional ones do more... having varing decay and repair rates... and tags to tack onto them to let the players know that theirs is a crude/normal/exceptional unit.

Oh, and we also need a mechanism in place to let the players know, without having to go look up numbers on everything, what tools could be used to make whatever.

[DELGRAD]

Anyway would make things harder by way of programming.

And getting to the point.
I really can't say anything.
I would only confuse myself and you. It really goes in
a different direction from your suggestion Seko.

I just have to.
Weapons as an example,
made with substandard tools would take much longer than
those with standard tools.

Seko, I do get your savages thought.

[Sicofonte]

I haven't think of this properly, but I love this suggestion.

[SekoETC]

The numbers in the table are just thrown in, actual values might be different, and naturally it doesn't include but a fraction of all the tools in game. You could think about for example is a sword of any kind valid as a knife, only with a very low finesse rating.

If this thing was in the game then maybe the ideal tools could be left to discovery, all you would know is that you need a hammer and a cutting instrument and discovering the right combination would be left to trial and error. But most likely people wouldn't like that after getting used to seeing everything on wiki.

[N-Aldwitch]

I disagree, you could have a Uni-item then.

Can you actually give us some in-game examples of this being used? And used by a majority, mind you.

[Sicofonte]

Thetaris, I think you're thinking too fast.

If this is well implemented, you won't have "uni-items".

[N-Aldwitch]

But doesn't it mean you can have a certain knife that cuts wool, digs holes, stabs people, cuts meat, etcetera???

[Sicofonte]

Yes. Rather logical.

But it (the knife) won't serve for crushing hematite, tightening nuts, or sewing cotton clothes.

So it is not a uni-item.

[SekoETC]

But doesn't it mean you can have a certain knife that cuts wool, digs holes, stabs people, cuts meat, etcetera???

This could use a clarifying example. Lets imagine the regular knife had all these functions (as it does in real life).

Code: Select all

item   group      finesse   power
===========================
knife   cutting   (fibre)   0.6   0.6
knife   cutting   (meat)   0.9   0.8
knife   cutting (cloth)   0.5   0.5
knife   cut. (leather)   0.9   0.9
knife   digging      0.5   0.2
knife   stabbing   0.9   0.6
knife   hole making   0.2   0.7
knife   whittling   1   0.8

As you can see, it has a pretty wide range of qualities. But it's not quite the optimum in any field. For comparison, let's compare the values for the optimal tools.

Code: Select all

item      group      finesse   power
=============================================
scissors   cutting   (fibre)   0.9   0.8
butcher's axe   cutting   (meat)   0.5   1
scalpel      cutting   (meat)   1   0.8
scissors   cutting (cloth)   0.9   0.9
leather slicer   cut. (leather)   1   1
garden spade   digging      0.8   0.4
shovel      digging      0.4   0.8
caterpillar   digging      0.1   1
sabre      stabbing   0.7   1
lever drill   hole making   1   1
shaving blade   whittling   0.5   1

It would be possible to implement a tool that was optimal for several tasks but that would not be realistic. When RD adds stuff it's based on research and things are meant to reflect real life logics as long as it wouldn't disrupt things in the game world. (For example I assume fuel consumption will be much lesser than in real life because of motor bikes not being able to carry a fuel tank if fuel weighted the same as in real life.)

[Sicofonte]

The voice of wisdom.


Let's accept this!

[N-Aldwitch]

The voice of wisdom.


Let's accept this!

No way! It makes Cantr WAY to complex, it already has a HUGE learning curve as it is!!! I, along with a few others, like the black and white simple system of Stone Hammer - works on houses, Sledgehammer - works on hematite... rather than Stone Hammer - works on harvesting nuts, cutting trees, working on houses, building furniture, healing someone, etc!!

[Sicofonte]

I do disagree. More complex the encoding, but more easy to understand (logical) the mechanics in the game.

And many other people prefers the logical system better than the ilogical. The fact that you are accostumed to the odd current system do not implies and easier learning curve to new players.

I am really tired of explaining to the new (and not so new) players why they can't use a (set/peen/war) hammer or a mallet for "crushing hematite (sledgehammer)".

Let's propose a votation about that learning curve...


PS: Moreover, MANY MANY MANY players have knowledge about real life, logical (and realistic) about what you can do with a knife, and your way squanders all those knowledge. I do think you are absolutly wrong

[SekoETC]

I don't think convincing N-Aldwich is worth the trouble. People have a right to their own opinion, even if others would see it as flawed. I've been trying to figure out how to implement this and it's rather complicated.

[Sicofonte]

More than babies, genes and so on?