Cantr eras

[15454]

It makes me wonder, have there ever been any major wars on the Treefeather island?

I failed horribly failed. There was a pirate fight that I rememer.. not a war.

[The Sociologist]

Clasical Europe (Rome and Greek) era was in most ways more andvanced than the far east, then the darkages hit while the far east started really coming together, up until 1300s or so the Chinese were way ahead of fuedial europe, but by the 1600s the renisance hit full swing and so did collonialsm, gunpowder technology, etc. eventually the industrial revolution hit and China was left way behind and became devided and collonized by various europian nations.

You're a bit too early there. Gunpowder was Chinese, and China had the largest economy on earth until roughly the early nineteenth century. It collapsed more for internal reasons, especially a low-level sort of "warlordism" in response to an immensely unpopular dynasty perceived as foreign, ie Manchurian. The Japanese, on the other hand, did catch up with the West and their own home-grown battleships defeated Russian ones in 1905.

[Nosajimiki]

"You're a bit too early there."
depends on who you ask, I'm going off of and art history date for saying when it offically began, although other effects of the Renesance probably didnt come into full swing until later.

also I used the 1300s as a relitive term. China was still far more organized and economicaly powerful, but Europe at that point was making practical use of cannons, longsbows, crossbows, pikes, and platemail which are significant when compared to the Chinese rockets, yumi, and katana. The Chinese still made better quality swords, and equivilantly powerful bows, but they were starting to fall behind in terms of artillery, armor, and senergy conscious weaponry. Thier cival technology was probaly still more advanced.

"Gunpowder was Chinese"

I'm aware that gunpowder itself was a Chineze invension, but they never used it as a significant millitary weapon to my knowledge, very primative cannons and rockets asside, until after more potent uses were introduced from western civlization during the colonial wars. Europeans and Americans made inovations such as flint locks, riffling, grapeshot(shotgun effect weapons), repeating(revolers and the like), automatic weapons (Dr. Gatiln's artillery version in mid 1800s followed by Browning's handhelds a few decades latter), so on so forth.

"China had the largest economy on earth until roughly the early nineteenth century"

large yes, but not the most technilogically advanced persay. You have to keep in mind that this time of collapse as you call it is also around the time or mercantilism and when Europe began mechinizing it's industries. They could no longer match trade prices with European producers because they were still making everything by hand.

"The Japanese, on the other hand, did catch up with the West and their own home-grown battleships defeated Russian ones in 1905."

Russia is Asian last I checked. What I can tell you is that in WWII Japan was still using bolt action riffles as thier primary infantry weapon compared to Americans and Germans who mainly used submachineguns, simi-automatic riffles, and assault riffles. They were also the farthest behind in terms of use of radar which was pivital in a number or thier naval failures.

[edit] 2 more notes,

1: the power of the katana has in recent history been proven to be highly exadurated, on tests against balistic gel dumbies, even in the hands of well trained individuals, they were unable to half even a single torso in a single blow, horizontally or vertically, which is a far cry from legends of them cuting through 5-6 stacked slaves.

2: the Europians had crossbows! Every Cantrian knows what that means Joking aside, crossbows were significant b/c they required far less training than bows allowing simple peasents to deliver acurate, armor piercing shots with only a few weeks training. Yumi and longbows, though both powerful in thier own rights were inacurate without months if not years of training.

[nitefyre]

"China had the largest economy on earth until roughly the early nineteenth century"

large yes, but not the most technilogically advanced persay. You have to keep in mind that this time of collapse as you call it is also around the time or mercantilism and when Europe began mechinizing it's industries. They could no longer match trade prices with European producers because they were still making everything by hand.

There's a few misnomers in that part of the post I just wanted to point out. Mercantalism, as I have understood it, had by then waned and modern economic theory (Adam Smith "Wealth of Nations" 1776) was well under way. European industrialization gave it the advantage over many other less developed nations (whether in Africa or Asia), but whereas China fell into the vicious cycle of buying European equipment (due to as what Sociologist called "internal" shortcomings), Japan alternatively chose to industrialize, too, and par up with the Europeans (Meijing Restoration).

"The Japanese, on the other hand, did catch up with the West and their own home-grown battleships defeated Russian ones in 1905."

Russia is Asian last I checked. What I can tell you is that in WWII Japan was still using bolt action riffles as thier primary infantry weapon compared to Americans and Germans who mainly used submachineguns, simi-automatic riffles, and assault riffles. They were also the farthest behind in terms of use of radar which was pivital in a number or thier naval failures.

Nevertheless, the argument by Sociologist (as general historical perception follows), is that Japan was indeed on par and 'competitive' with the European world by 1904/5 in the Russo-Japanese War. Russia falls in both as an Asian and (more often described as) a European power--a long running historical debate. Since the European world was so shocked at the defeat of both Russian* land and sea forces (both their Atlantic and Pacific fleets destroyed), and the fact that they still had European monarchs in power, leaves us to presume that Japan's prowess was certainly noteworthy.

The idea of Japan having such a modern fleet whereupon they could crush the Americans at Pearl Harbor (about those technological advancements that were mentioned...) and push across American/British/Dutch colonies within months, says quite a lot for their advancement from a "backward Asian nation." Their ability to adapt is often attributed to the fact that they for centuries had tried to mimmick China--the predominant power and center in the East. It seems to be regaining that position at an alarming rate today!

NB: Japan was also the last axis power to fall (although that may be due to the Allied war plan).

*Admittedly, Russia was considered the most backward/Asian of the forward/European, or the most forward of the backward....


Anyway, I fail to see how this relates to Cantr! As Jos has asserted, it is absurd to relate Cantr's evolution to a period in history. We may have pieces and bits in certain societies, but that is too selective and does not represent the greater tendencies.

Jon: You mention that your dream for Cantr is to take on a truly global dimension, the likes of which are apparent in the real world like never before. Additionally, you have expressed that the original Lego game took place in a relatively concurrent timeline, but where in history's timeline would you pinpoint the societal evolution of the Cantr world?

Jos: I am not sure I can answer that question any better or differently from any other player. The intention certainly always has been to get into a time frame very similar to our Lego game, with organizations and social structures similar to real life even despite some minor oddities (i.e. in the Lego game swords were also actually fairly important). The exact time frame has never bothered me much –it really is about game play, not about time. But the kind of game play I particularly enjoy is concerned with elections, modern politics, law writing, financial institutions, monetary policies, factories, etc., all of which require a relatively modern time frame. The current total mix in Cantr, with some societies looking like the Stone Age and others having modern institutions I actually find the most interesting, and I am not really bothered with the fact that it is not very historically accurate. It's rather irrelevant.

In one respect you can certainly say that the game is in an early time frame: everything that happens is still very local in nature. Only in some cases - the former Ladvicitavoi Empire, the KDS regional systems --is there some truly regional organization. That is probably similar to the real world history, where local politics were long more important than they are now (although some large empires existed a long time ago). I certainly hope that Cantr will outgrow this period. I would love to see the main islands being divided in a few major countries, instead of the many small towns with each their own self-sufficient systems. It would make politics in the game far more interesting.

[Nosajimiki]

I still say Russia is far eastern and Japan was technologicly inferior through the end of WWII.

but as before said, it's getting off topic the fact, one way or the other is that trying to compare histories from one region to another does create inconsistancies because thier antiquities and darkages dont line up. But the real world examples do bring up a question. Can Cantr really fall into a darkage? Sure, governments can break down and we can loose a player base, but the way things are, a building will stand for ever and all the machines there in. You could kill off 3/4 of the population in a place with a Hemetite drill, and there will still be that drill, and even a single miner can put out large loads hemitite once that thing is there. Cantr needs a method of total war, I know building leveling machines have been rejected before, but how can you emulate society with out compleate cultureal obliteration and technological dark ages? ... okay, that was also off topic...

[Nalaris]

Katana's were not Chinese weapons, they were Japanese.

[Wolf]

Russia is far eastern?
Uhm.... you must be mistaken with huge chunks of what used to be part of the Russian empire, or of the Soviet Union.
If Russia is far eastern, then where do you place the countries that make up the middle eastern region?
Those go further to the east than Russia.

From what I remember of my time in school, Russia would be Eastern European, or Eurasian if you use some wider definitions, but definitely not far eastern.

[Nosajimiki]

last map I checked, Russia goes farther east than China too

As for the Katana specificly, yes it was a Japanese sword, though the techniques for making them were invented in China: edge temporing, folded steal etc. So they did have technolgicly similar weapons, but the arguement is about the far east vs Europe, so the difference is irrelevent to the arguement

[Pie]

crossbows were invinted in china bc 200.

[Pie]

was the katana's that they used in that experement folded 200+ times? was it made of steel? and also, katanas back then were a good 1.5 inches longer than the ones of today, making tem slimmer and alot sharper.

[Hannibal The Imbecile 15]

To go back to previous statements; The dark ages were even before Rome and Greece. They weren't even really throughout all of the Meditteranean, it was mostly in the Dorian civilization that eventually turned into the early greeks.

[Lychee]

Katana's were not Chinese weapons, they were Japanese.

the Chinese one would be called Jian.

[west]

To go back to previous statements; The dark ages were even before Rome and Greece. They weren't even really throughout all of the Meditteranean, it was mostly in the Dorian civilization that eventually turned into the early greeks.

"Dark Ages" usually refers to the period between the fall of Rome and about AD1000. The early Middle Ages of Europe.