Tools in conjunction with gathering limits

[PRUT]

And mine.

Say, what's New Zealand like?

It's the coolest set of islands in the whole world!




I'm glad you like the idea, Kinvoya. I think it's pretty wonderfull myself.

As for peppercorns, I'm not entirely sure what they are either. I think you make spice with them, but I don't really know. But all the same, if it weren't peppercorns, the entire system would have to be scraped.

The peppercorns are vital.

Good Idea! I like it too.


New Zealand? Are you nuts?
Recently I watched in reality TV border officers, when they were killing for two days (with gas) small lizard to avoid ecosystem fall
The also don't allow people enter with bananas, apples even cakes from a airplane's meal They are taking care about ecosystsems and national agriculture

[PRUT]

And small CONCLUSION for all who got lost with all the debate:


LAND SCARCITY is like a CAKE, when too many people want to eat it.

All talks are about how to solve the problem of too small cake.
People has different ideas which I will try to show:


SYSTEM BASED ON GATHERERS

In current system and any other which is based on slots, the solution is not to allow everybody to eat the Cake. Only chosen ones can seat near the table and eat. The size of the Cake depends of what kind of tools they are using and hob big apetite they have. One thing is sure:
If you are allowed to eat, you can eat as much as you can, if not - you cannot eat at all


SYSTEM BASED ON RESOURCES

KeVes suggested that everybody can eat the cake, no one is better or worse! But the grater the number of people who want to eat, the smaller will be the part of Cake for each. So, in this case you can eat as much, as others let you to eat. If You are better with eating or have better tools, you eat faster than others and more than others.

My suggestion is similar to KeVes. The only difference is that in his system the Cake can be bigger or smaller dependigly of eaters apethite. I disagree with that and I think that the Cake has a constant size.


Coming back to the poll. If like system number 1, You should poll on B (second option), but if you like system number 2, vote for A (fist option)

And this is what everybody is talking about in brief

[Jur Schagen]

KeVes suggested that everybody can eat the cake, no one is better or worse! But the grater the number of people who want to eat, the smaller will be the part of Cake for each. So, in this case you can eat as much, as others let you to eat. If You are better with eating or have better tools, you eat faster than others and more than others.

My suggestion is similar to KeVes. The only difference is that in his system the Cake can be bigger or smaller dependigly of eaters apethite. I disagree with that and I think that the Cake has a constant size.


Coming back to the poll. If like system number 1, You should poll on B (second option), but if you like system number 2, vote for A (fist option)

??? You got them confused, I think??? Keves and you both suggested the "constant pie size" (option A in the poll) while I suggested "varying pie size" (option B)?

[PRUT]

Keves idea of factors assumes changes numbers of maximum possible resources to be gathered, dependingly on what are you working. So, if some of gatherers working on one resource, the maximum output of the second will be lower. Because resources are corelated and maximum outputs of them are not constant.

This is the meaning of my words


And one more reflection:
You want to implenent land scarcity in one side, but in the other You are afraid of it. That's why you treat tools and machines as an emergency exit We really don't need to implement scarcity, if we are not prepared. Sometimes the best solution is to get back

[kroner]

having a hard cap on the total amount of resources that can be gathered is unrealistic. irl, tools and effective farming techniques (which in cantr is represented by "skill") can increase the yield of a given piece of land by many times.

in addition to it being unrealistic. it's incredibly harmful to the game. implementing this system would only result in shortage without necessitating specialization. specialization is the goal of this land scarcity thing, it's not just in place to make life hard for people (although granted, that is a side effect, it's not the goal). with a limit on the amount that can be gathered it might prompt the town to limit the number of people it has gathering, but it makes no difference who these people are. in other words, there's no specialization.

whether there should be a cap on the number of gatherers, or if the amount gathered should be inversely proportional to the number of gatherers is a different issue entirely. you're lumping this together with a resource hard cap as if they were the same thing. they are not. having tools and skills negatively effevt the production of others or not could each be implemented with either system of a gatherer hard cap or a gather rate based on the number of gatherers.

[KVZ]

Note that implementing the first will take longer to implement as well.

But why?

KeVes suggested that everybody can eat the cake, no one is better or worse! But the grater the number of people who want to eat, the smaller will be the part of Cake for each. So, in this case you can eat as much, as others let you to eat. If You are better with eating or have better tools, you eat faster than others and more than others.

My suggestion is similar to KeVes. The only difference is that in his system the Cake can be bigger or smaller dependigly of eaters apethite. I disagree with that and I think that the Cake has a constant size.

Good example I know you think that your idea is ideal one, but think about fields. If there is one field with corn and 2'nd with potatoes 1'st can grow at cost of 2'nd. So, maybe there should be variant of both of those ifeas? Some resources like harvested food would have flexible limit, and others would have fixed limit? But I think that Jos want flexiblity for all resources, so cities can choose what to gather.

Coming back to the poll. If like system number 1, You should poll on B (second option), but if you like system number 2, vote for A (fist option)

But why? This poll is about if tools (and machines) should affect those without them or give those who have tools and machines extra output from "nowhere". If you want to see which idea mine or you or this third variant which I proposed now with flexible food resources (potatoes, rice, carrots, etc), but fixed other resources (like hematite and coal) then make new poll. But I think that both variants of those with different limit for all or some of resources are much harder to implementation.

??? You got them confused, I think??? Keves and you both suggested the "constant pie size" (option A in the poll) while I suggested "varying pie size" (option B)?

Well, there is difference that in my suggestion is "constant pie size" but there is one "pie" is one for all resources and everyone can select which part of pie he wants, and PRUT wants that each resource will have different "pie" with different constant size. And you want that there will be one "pie" with varying size.

in addition to it being unrealistic. it's incredibly harmful to the game. implementing this system would only result in shortage without necessitating specialization. specialization is the goal of this land scarcity thing, it's not just in place to make life hard for people (although granted, that is a side effect, it's not the goal). with a limit on the amount that can be gathered it might prompt the town to limit the number of people it has gathering, but it makes no difference who these people are. in other words, there's no specialization.

Harmful to the game. Well, thats why I suppose that b option will win in this poll. Most of players don't like to limit themselwes too much. But hey, I always said, that if it have to affect tools and machines then limits should be increased to balance game out. I see arguments for b option too. But it is still too unrealistic for me. Maybe if tools and machines always will increase total resources collected, then their positive effects have to be lowered proportionally to overpopulation? Just to be more realistic (but I think implementing this affection can wait a bit). And if we talking about skills, I have question to Jur. In your suggestion, if someone will have low skill he will make others possible to gather more from the limit? And if someone will have high skill he will gather more above the limit like with tools?

[Jur Schagen]

I have question to Jur. In your suggestion, if someone will have low skill he will make others possible to gather more from the limit? And if someone will have high skill he will gather more above the limit like with tools?

It's simply, really. Right now, a project is advanced at turn change by (basic gathering amount * skills * tools) / project size. This will be multiplied by overpop factor (8 slots worked by 10 people = 80%). The overpop factor (80%) is equal for all people gathering.

Jur.

[Agar]

I don't really understand what this poll is about. I sure the hell don't want to see another change to the way land scarcity works. Here's a couple of thoughts on the ideas I've been able to follow.

1: People gathering with tools shouldn't affect the amount gathered by people without tools. If you want to use tools to decrease other peoples gathering rate, hit them with it.

2: No one knows why we're implementing any of these ideas. I had thought trade, others had thought specialisation, others think there's a vendetta. Maybe we shouldn't put a face or a motive on this feature and just try to work it out.

3: New Zeland is, apparenly, cool. You get to off lizards with gas there. Not sure what that had to do with any of this ...

There seems to be a shortage of food in the polish area. What are you folks eating these days? Untill the nutritional value of foods are decreased, the current limits should allow people to eat, as long as you all have something better than blueberries to eat. Carrots, potatoes, rice asparagus, spinage, all have a high enough gathering rate that they can be gathered faster than several people can eat them. Wheat and rye (if it's even implemented) are kinda iffy, and berries and the lot are pretty much suicide to try to live off of.

The more we know about food problems, the more ways we can try to make sure they're not getting singularly screwed. Let's hear what ails you.

[PRUT]

Good example I know you think that your idea is ideal one, but think about fields. If there is one field with corn and 2'nd with potatoes 1'st can grow at cost of 2'nd. So, maybe there should be variant of both of those ifeas? Some resources like harvested food would have flexible limit, and others would have fixed limit? But I think that Jos want flexiblity for all resources, so cities can choose what to gather.

This is it! Well The ideal one is this third idea, but anyway I strongly support yours

Backing to New Zealand...
I saw another two cases:
• One man cried because oficers took his apple pie and gave fine of 200 dollars for smuggling illegal food
• One of rugby palyers had to pay fine, because his shoes was dirty , and he had another pair of shoes which he didn't declared. Fine was 300 dollars

I don't know who wants to go to New Zealand

[El_Skwidd]

I think this will become less of a problem once children are implemented.

What? How are children and food related?

Well, a newspawn starts out with nothing, which we all know. No food, no iron, no anything... and no friends.

A child would start out with two of the greatest friends it can have, its parents. They would give it food and the means to start its own life.

Now, since that won't come for a potentially long time, I'll move on to kroner's point. The problem with land scarcity is that not everyone can gather their own food like they used to be able to, so now food is an issue. The ONLY way around this is specialization and trade. Dedicate your food slots to a farming company that can produce mass amounts of food for the town to use, and then you've got your food supply.

This forces people to have jobs and a source of income. This forces employers to pay their employees. This forces more of a society than Cantr could have had before.

[KVZ]

We are talking about limits but not childs. And I don't like childs introduced in Cantr too much. If your char is old and developed he or she can always adopt a newspawn!

[Shaderon]

Hell, why do we not just scrap farming altogether? How about, you only have to eat a pepercorn every day, and if you don't, you die. Each town gets three pepercorns daily. They just appear on the ground, and first to grab them has them. Then people could fight each other for them, and then all the death and fighting it would be fullscale civil disorder. Then the governments would have something to do forever!

What do you think? No?

YES This is fantastic! And they can sppear just after the server backup when I'm online....

Dreams...... "I have 300 peppercorns, selling at a rate of 100g of steel or 3000g of salt... any buyers?"