Capital Rule and Languages

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Poney
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Capital Rule and Languages

Postby Poney » Mon Jul 18, 2005 8:24 am

Hi everyone! I have just registered and I would like to share these questions that have been bugging me for a while and ask for a hopefully enlightening explanation. This is related to the implication of the Capital Rule on in-game dealings with languages other than the language of the character. I hope I'm not duplicating any thread, I'velooked for thread on the issue but I haven't come across anything addressing my questions.

I understand that the character is only supposed to know his language, and no other. It probably is the case of an overwhelming majority of English-speaking players (tell me if I'm wrong). And as for players speaking languages other than English they probably all have a passive if not working knowledge of English, as everyone surfing a lot the Internet inevitably gains (I might be wrong here again but that's not crucial to the discussion). So it's just the real life situation that's reflected into the game: we can't expect an English player to know any other language that he's likely to come across in exchanges with other language communities. So the other language communities, when meeting with English-speaking folk, should pretend not to know English. I also understand that the idea is (I think I read that in the thread Languages, I'm not sure though) that people can try to communicate by signs, and try to teach each other basic vocabulary, names for ressources. But here's my question: what is this supposed to lead to? I mean, you won't learn Dutch or Polish that way. Are these exchanges doomed to be done through simplistic signing and basic juxtapositions of words? (Maybe commercial pidgins would arise, but I think this is more fantasizing than thinking of a real way to deal with the matter.)
In the end I think that the matter of language is too complicated and to dependent on OOC world to be entirely dealt with IC. I think I would be for people using their knowledge of any other language they have OOC, IC, and for people using a dictionary or something to help them make heads or tails of map written in German or Dutch. Of course this has the disadvantage of giving an advantage (whoa) to those with a previous knowledge of other languages, but hey, doesn't everyone come and play IC with some advantages and disadvantages when compared with other players. (I'm saying this almost in bad faith, because I'm thinking of maybe 'role-playing superiority' or knowledge of some political or economical concepts that can give an advantage, though I don't know how well it holds the comparison with the issue of languages.)

There's a second point I would like to address. I think it happens fairly often in non-English regions to find English in notes (excerpts from the event logs for example) and even in dialogues when we can't think of the proper word for some items and such, though I only have the experience of the French region to back me up. How should we deal with that? One can translate the events log excerpt, but still, that's a lot of work. And how can it be that if I come across 'bone knife' in a note or in chatting with another French Cantrian I recognize it, but if I hear it from an English-speaking traveler, I should not know the word, because it's English and I'm not supposed to know English.

Maybe I have forgotten to say something but my post is lengthy enough to put people like me off and make them not read it so I'll stop here and wait impatiently to see what you have to say. Please answer! It's so lame when a newcomer posts something and the thread doesn't get a reply in a week. :cry: I've seen that on forums though I can't say I've seen it here. :wink:
Talapus
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Postby Talapus » Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:16 am

What is really interesting in these situations from my understanding is the initial interaction between the language groups. A character should not know the language when they first arrive on a foreign speaking island (even if the player knows the language in question), and all conversations and dealings should be worked out. What matters more then the specifics, is the spirit of the matter. If your French speaking character were to live in an English speaking town for two or three years, I think it would be perfectly acceptable to roleplay them acquiring the language slowly (in the first few years keep a reference sheet for translation or somesuch, and slowly increase your characters vocabulary with words from an OOC translation dictionary), and then mastering the language and be bilingual. Now this would only be the case if that character were living with constant exposure to the foreign language, and only for a substantial amount of time. If the aforementioned character were to just make land fall several times in different towns to trade, you should roleplay as if they don't have much understanding of the language (none at all in the first place they meet natives). I hope that answers any questions that you have, and if not, then hopefully one of the other players will touch on what you are looking for. Also note that these are all personal readings of the spirit of the rules and possibly don't reflect the views of the PD or Jos.
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wichita
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Postby wichita » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:40 pm

Wow! That was a very intelligent and thought out first post in my opinion. Welcome to the forums and game Poney. :D That is pretty much the standard answer that has been determined through discussion on the forums. You have to pretend that your character at first understands only the language you signed up to play in. H can try to learn any languages he encounters after that, but roleplay the learning process. That is half the fun of it, really.

Actually, this makes me wonder. Have any language schools been established in those areas where there has been considerable regualr contact between language groups?
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El_Skwidd
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Postby El_Skwidd » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:15 pm

I haven't seen any. My Spanish character was considering it when all of a sudden, the French woman and the Dutch man hanging out with me in the forest up and left. However... I know where they live :twisted:
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Nick
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Postby Nick » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:19 pm

Dictionaries can be found in regions were language intermingling is common.

My character has a dictionary with about 30 dutch words, translated to his langauge, french.
west
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Postby west » Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:43 pm

It shouldn't be that hard, anyway. Cantrians have a very limited vocabulary, at least as far as the natural world goes.
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Poney
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So I should delete this lines, shouldn't I?

Postby Poney » Mon Jul 18, 2005 7:26 pm

Maybe this follow-up to my first post would better fit in the Capital Rule Breaches forum. Whatever.

I hadn't thought of the question of languages when I read some comments about it on the forum. Then I thought of these lines of the 'Chroniques' (Chronicles) one of my character is writing, and I think I should remove them. I'm submitting the excerpt to you so as to have your comments. I really think I will have to remove them in the end, but I think it's sad. Maybe someone can think of a way to deal otherwise with it?

(Translated from the French, the quoted note is in English.)

excerpt from the Chronicles wrote:The note called "dieb" seems quite interesting. Unfortunately it is not dated. Here it is:

note -dieb- wrote:He seems strong and is in his twenties. He wears:
a small piece of fur that covers the groin and pelvic region leaving little to the
imagination.


You can see him holding a brand new bone club, a used crossbow, a brand new iron
shield, a brand new iron shield, and a new pair of bellows.

HommeDeRomovWoods4 (Dieb) (Husjna`s fiets [bike])


Dieb is the German word for thief (English thief, Dutch dief). I don't know though what this thief might have stolen. Maybe he's responsible for the five dead bodies I found? I can't say. I believe the bone club and the crossbow can be used to hurt men. But this is only hypothetical. The last line of the note is particularly intructive. The observer called the thief "HommeDe(LocationName)4" ('ManFrom(LocationName)4'), this suggests two things: the man was from the place, as his name states clearly, and he wasn't alone, which is the only meaning I can find for the '4'. Moreover, he rode a bike.


Investigating documents found in the Location, my character is trying to guess what he can of the past events. He's also trying to explain the five dead bodies he found. As you see, the whole of his analysis starts from his knowledge of 'Dieb' being the German word for thief. Should he rewrite everything, leaving pending a thorough analysis of the note, and maybe one day he'll meet someone who can teach him that 'dieb' means 'voleur' (thief). Or (worst), should he completely be unable to understand the note, as it is written in English. It clearly is a copy and paste from the character description page. But then again, isn't the description page in English because it's the language of the character of the player who did the copy and paste (because in my experience when I play my English characters the interface is in English and when I play the French one it's in French). Or maybe he's a German player (we have to explain why the title of the note is 'dieb' and why the name of the thief is followed by '(Dieb)') and the interface is in English because it hasn't (or hadn't, at the time) been translated into German.

In the end I would like to hear what other Cantrians would do.

(He also wrote a map made from various sources, one being a map written in Dutch. So I think I should rewrite it and not use the translation of Dutch words I got OOC.)
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El_Skwidd
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Postby El_Skwidd » Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:08 pm

I think a language school would still be cool, even with vocabulary dictionaries in place. If you have a feel for the language and know the grammatical structure, you can really tell when someone just typed a sentence into an internet translator and pasted what it spat out. It gets the message across, but it sounds like a four year old talking (which is, I guess, what you would sound like when you first learn a language). A language school could actually teach a character how to use the language, and then they could go back to whatever language group they're from and spread it around.

As for the note incident in another language, I would probably do what you're doing. Investigate other notes in the area and try to piece together information to form a hypothesis.

This language barrier thing is turning out to be one of my favorite things about Cantr. If you know a foreign language, I highly suggest playing a language group.
Cdls wrote:Explaining Cantr to a newb would be like explaining sex to a virgin.




Let the world hear these words once more:

Save us, oh Lord, from the wrath of the Norsemen!
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Maelstrom
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Postby Maelstrom » Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:34 pm

This is likely the best thread to tack this on, so...

I have a character which spawned in the middle of BFE Forest (Kwats) with one french character present, and a dutch character appearing soon after. There are more dutch notes than french notes present, and I was briefly wondering if I'd hit the wrong language.

Now, I spawned him as a French character, but was wondering if he could know dutch also, though not as well, since he began in an area which seems to be saturated with dutch literature. In effect, he's born on a border town and can speak a bit of the 'foreign' language due to this.

Is this a problem? Anyone but Nick can answer. :wink:
wulf
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Postby wulf » Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:46 pm

Cantrians have eight hours a day whereas most of us only visit each one for a handful of minutes. They don't freeze in the middle of pulling up carrots when we're not watching them. Therefore, I don't think it's unreasonable for characters in border regions to become multilingual, certainly over a period of time, without players having to put eight hours a day into hearing the other language.

I think the idea of developing a personal vocabulary sheet is a good one. Build it up by hearing things which you've heard in the other language (and probably translated with an online engine). Gradually you'll be able to communicate in the language, although your range of expressions will be shaped by those you've come into contact with (including picking up all their bad habits!).

Wulf
Floris
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Re: So I should delete this lines, shouldn't I?

Postby Floris » Mon Nov 07, 2005 2:50 pm

Poney wrote:
(Translated from the French, the quoted note is in English.)

excerpt from the Chronicles wrote:The note called "dieb" seems quite interesting. Unfortunately it is not dated. Here it is:

note -dieb- wrote:He seems strong and is in his twenties. He wears:
a small piece of fur that covers the groin and pelvic region leaving little to the
imagination.


You can see him holding a brand new bone club, a used crossbow, a brand new iron
shield, a brand new iron shield, and a new pair of bellows.

HommeDeRomovWoods4 (Dieb) (Husjna`s fiets [bike])


Dieb is the German word for thief (English thief, Dutch dief). I don't know though what this thief might have stolen. Maybe he's responsible for the five dead bodies I found? I can't say. I believe the bone club and the crossbow can be used to hurt men. But this is only hypothetical. The last line of the note is particularly intructive. The observer called the thief "HommeDe(LocationName)4" ('ManFrom(LocationName)4'), this suggests two things: the man was from the place, as his name states clearly, and he wasn't alone, which is the only meaning I can find for the '4'. Moreover, he rode a bike.




Without trying to make this matter more complex, I'd also like to put in the fact that the vehicle in which the character was riding in the specific note had a dutch name. Which means that in fact four different languages were in one note. However, the name of the bike is given by the one building it, so this can't be traced back towards any of the chars involved.

Or am I wrong?


(in this situation I imagine some sort of metal card hanging from the bike with the bike's name on it)
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EchoMan
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Postby EchoMan » Mon Nov 07, 2005 4:09 pm

west wrote:It shouldn't be that hard, anyway. Cantrians have a very limited vocabulary, at least as far as the natural world goes.

"Hey newspawn, drop that or die". yep, six words! :lol:
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Russell of Los Angeles
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Postby Russell of Los Angeles » Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:44 pm

Wow! I had no idea that the mixing of language groups gets played out in these ways. Now I'd really like to have a english speaking character spawn near some Spanish lands so I can practice my poor Spanish, which I otherwise feel is not competent enough to begin a Spanish character. Of course, attempting to spawn an English character near Spanish lands might very difficult, if not impossible, and might involve some ugly behavior on the part of newspawns that miss the mark. No, I better talk to the Players Department and see if it can be arranged without hassle. :lol:
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Nick
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Re: So I should delete this lines, shouldn't I?

Postby Nick » Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:49 pm

note -dieb- wrote:He seems strong and is in his twenties. He wears:
a small piece of fur that covers the groin and pelvic region leaving little to the
imagination.


You can see him holding a brand new bone club, a used crossbow, a brand new iron
shield, a brand new iron shield, and a new pair of bellows.

HommeDeRomovWoods4 (Dieb) (Husjna`s fiets [bike])


:D
OT: This note is about my character. :)
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Nick
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Postby Nick » Mon Nov 07, 2005 5:49 pm

Russell of Los Angeles wrote:Wow! I had no idea that the mixing of language groups gets played out in these ways. Now I'd really like to have a english speaking character spawn near some Spanish lands so I can practice my poor Spanish, which I otherwise feel is not competent enough to begin a Spanish character. Of course, attempting to spawn an English character near Spanish lands might very difficult, if not impossible, and might involve some ugly behavior on the part of newspawns that miss the mark. No, I better talk to the Players Department and see if it can be arranged without hassle. :lol:


Whatever Spanish knowledge you have as a player, your english characters don't know Spanish.

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