London Blasts

[Darth_Tater]

ok...I'm not the smartest guy in the world...most ya might have noticed. but check this. I spent alittle over a year in Iraq. From April 5, 2003 -April 14, 2004. I'm a truck driver for the US Army. yea yea war on terror blah blah blah...people yer right. Terrorism is never going to be completely gone. And ya know I've seen what all goes on and all. And even done somethings that if I was one of them Iraqi locals I would absolutly hate americans. But in my head I tried to justify why I was there...One was to watch out for my buddy, 2 was to give them people a chance at a better life.

Not saying the US knows whats right for them, but saying that they deserve a chance to make things better. And if its by over throwing a dictator and or keeping terrorist groups/ insurgence/ ''bad people'' whatever out...hey I'm for it. I have a good life and i think those people over there deserve it just as much as I do if not more.

And ontop of that, I think the Terrorist are a bunch of ^(&%^%#%%$****(^. I mean I got my reasons...you get a bomb shot at ya and see how much ya like that person...but I respect what they are doing and why. They are no different than me. They are doing the same thing I am er was. I used to pass this graveyard ever othere day and every time I passed it ...it was bigger and more bodies. The ones that was military (( Iraqi military )) or fighting to keep us out or what not...had the Iraqi flag painted on the tomb. I would see that and think... hey, you gave more than I have for your individual cause. And thats something I can respect. I didnt think haha sucker or anything...I was thinking man..someones mama is mad at us, but I bet she couldnt be more proud of her son.

Sorry if this seems like just some random crappy annoying rant that doesnt make sense...but I just had some thoughts running threw my head and had to get them out. Every, from what I've seen has made some good points (( except for pie who cant even spell Jedi....)) But thought maybe some of yaw might be intrested as to what a veteran of this current war might think..

[wichita]

Tater, you probably have more right to say that than anybody else on this thread. I am greatful to get to hear your viewpoint. It is sad that we don't get to hear more perspective from the frontline troops that have been there, lived through it, and gotten to see what it is really like out there.

Not to say that the Londoners didn't get to see it too...(prepares to dodge the shower of responses)...but the people who get to live through an attack once or twice, or just get to listen to the news analysts and edited footage on the TV can't possibly understand things as well as the guys going through it everyday. Wonder why we don't get to hear that on the news more often? Hmmm.....


And I've also noticed that if you really talk to the veterans who have really lived through the thick of it, you will hear similar stories of respect for the enemy....not acceptance of the other side, but respect. On both sides of the battle. I think that was captured well in the last episode of Band of Brothers...while the German commander was decomissioning his troops.

[Darth_Tater]

Band of Brothers ...wow...great series. I own it * smiles* But oh no not saying that the people in London didnt experience something you know....I have friends who I went to training with, that some of there family and friends died in 9/11...I have friends who have friends over in London that was right next to the event and luckly wasnt hurt. And I had a friend from High School who was a Marine be killed about 15-20 minutes up the road from me while I was over there. but yea I wasnt saying the people in london hadnt experienced something ...just thought maybe some people might would want to hear a Vets. point of view

[Talapus]

I am glad you posted that Tater. It was in my opinion the only relevent post for quite awhile, and it was very insightful. I wish we could see some more respect all around the world (not acceptance, but recognition that there might be reasons behinds other people's actions).

[Dee]

Pirog>

God does was God does. I can't answer for God can I? I also won't judge his actions. I'm NOT God's judge. I believe you'll have a chance to confront God on the issue some day. Ask him.

If there's no God, then no need to ponder the question. But, if you're wrong, good luck when you 2 meet. Either way, that's up to you and Him.

I don't have any dillusion that I'll convince you or anyone else. However, I do think people should hear an alternate opinion on Good and Evil.

And, I can't and won't try to prove anything. I'm NOT God's lawyer. But, I have made a personal commitment to God...(one which I admittedly fail to live up to as well as I wish). Since that time I have been witness to the amazing things God can do in a person's life. Therefore, I AM God's witness.

If it isn't God and there's a "placebo effect" in my life, then so be it. It definitely works for me even if I don't understand everything that you appear to understand about Christianity. In my experience, knowledge isn't always wisdom.

BACK ON TOPIC

In any case, bombing a train full of people going to work is evil. I don't care if just you or 99% of the rest of world believes otherwise.

*applaud*

[Stan]

I've just got to add one more thing. As I've said I realize that I, America, the Western world do some things that make us unpopular, but for goodness sakes. But to point fingers only at victims is totally off base.

To say that London (in this case) was attacked because America or the UK or whoever did something to incite someone to blow up a train is exactly the same thing as blaming a woman for getting raped because she dresses in short skirts. It sounds like it makes sense, but in reality (and when you really stop and think about what you say) it makes no sense at all.

Using this logic I could blame anyone for anything that's happened to them. For instance,

Mr. Grocery Store Clerk, you chose to sit behind that desk and guard all that money. If you would have just opened the cash register and walked away a man with a gun wouldn't have had to come in and shoot you to take it.

Ms. Schoolgirl, you chose to walk to school that day the drug gang decided to kill Charlie because he owed them $23 for the crack he bought on credit last week. Too bad you were shot...you had a choice to stay home but no you decided to go about your daily routine, full well understanding the risks. And you increased your own risk by walking on a drug gang's turf.

Quite contrary, I think the people killed London last week and all those killed by terrorist attacks around the world are COMPLETELY INNOCENT of any wrongdoing. They weren't killed for being a jackass. They were killed for maximum exposure by evil people looking to gain fame and power. There's no way to justify it any other way.

[wichita]

I hope it hasn't sounded like I was trying to defend terrorism with any of my posts, Stan. The only thing I was trying to point out, and that Tater's post so wonderfully illustrated, is that times of trial like this should prompt us to not only recognize and deal with the source of evil in the world, but also to take a step back and review ourselves and our own behavior in the process. We should try to truly understand what is at stake here, how we came to be in this situation, and what things we can do to maybe get out of it and make things right again.

Yes innocent people were attacked in London, and innocent people are attacked everyday. Does that make the individual vicitims at fault? No. Of course not. I hope I didn't start or at least propagate a slippery slope. But, I still believe there is something to be said for reassessing the state of our culture and how that culture is portrayed through the rest of the world, and what effects that portrayal has on other cultures in the world that might be different from ours.


Often times people throw out the argument that if there is a God, then why do so many terrible tragedies happen? Well, the answer to that is simply that we learn from tragedy. Without tragedy, we wouldn't understand joy. With out terror, we wouldn't understand the value of security. With out hunger, we wouldn't understand the blessings of prosperity.

I am afraid that if we as a society simply stand back and condemn the terrorists for their actions without taking the time to reflect fully on the nature of the situation, we will not fully learn the full potential of the lesson to be gained from the history that is being played out before us. We study history to avoid repeating the mistakes of our forefathers. To study that history only halfway means that we will likely repeat half of the mistakes that have been made in the past. That hinders progress. That is the reason I have posted the things that I have in this thread.

[Stan]

I understand. Peace, dude. I think we're all in agreement that the attacks were sad.

I wish I knew why God let things like that happen. I really do. But, I do know this. He gave us free will. That means we have the right to chose not to kill people. We also have the choice to help others in need. We also have the choice to love other people...even those that seem unloveable to us.

So, I would encourage people to go beyond demonstration and debate and to personally help another person in need.

[formerly known as hf]

Sorry surly - I understand what you were saying about this being so near to the time. I live in London. There was a scary few moments when I hadn't heard from my father who may have been on one of those tubes. I could have been if I had not changed jobs. My flat for next year is five houses down from one of the houses in Leeds where someone was arrested today in connection with the bombings.

If anything though, that makes it more important to me to discuss the issues around the subject.

I stand by what I said - good an evil, like right and wrong are entirely subjective. And this is a good example. We have seen pictures of Extremists cheering at the events of 9/11 - they clearly thought it was something good. Something right. Hence, to them, it was good, not an evil act. I am by no means saying that they are right in thinking that - but it simply agian goes to show that what is good or evil is a matter of personal opinion.

Millions of people - christians, muslims, jews etc. and non religious people, for religious or other reasons say that to be gay, lesbian or bisexual is evil. This is not a minority, This is millions of people. Does that make me evil?
I don't think so - it makes me evil in their opinion - likewise, these terrorists are evil in our opinions - I think we're right - I think we have the right concept of evil - but that doesn't mean evil is a fixed thing.

I'm sorry that this post has come late - I realise the conversation has moved on - and rightfully so.


What the terrorists did last week was awful, wrong, and, yes, I think deeply evil. Wether or not the war on terror is the right response, or if we are in any way to blame by inciting this - those are questions that can't be answered, and can be debated as long as they are in our minds. Everyone has an opinion on this, and everyone has a right to voice that. But this kind of discussion is not always constructive - it's often circular.

I'm deeply non-religious (If that's a possible statement) - and whilst I've disagreed with a lot that Stan has to say - I do agree with the sentiments of the above post. We can be divided on the particulars - but I can't imagine anyone here can do anything but condem these kinds of actions. If there is anything that needs to come out of this - it is that everyone, no matter what race, muslim, christian or any religion, no matter what beliefs, no matter what origins, politics or beliefs, anyone who condems these acts, can use that mutual condemnation and abhorence to strengthen, not divide. The recent attacks on sikh temples and mosques in the UK in 'response' to the terrorist attacks sickens me - as it simply mirrors the kind of ignorance and hatred of the terrorists.

[Surly]

I think the whole debate can be summed up simply...

View 1: There is a basic human moral code. Good is good, bad is bad. Therefore, evil is evil.

View 2: There is no code. Everything is a matter of perspective... good can be bad from one viewpoint, and bad is good from the other. Everything is relative.

I usually subscribe to view 2. But I cannot accept killing innocent people as anything but evil. Those terrorists were evil. But they might have been only 4... I will not demonise everyone just because of those terrorists. I cannot forgive them for what they have done, not yet, because it could so easily have been me, or my dad or uncle.

The pain is still much too real.

[Darth_Tater]

Perspective...hehe I love that word. Heres a story...ok 9/11 certain groups/organization/factions/what ever cheered as the planes hit the towers...Late March (( believe it or not I dont remember the exact day )) 2003 the US bomb the (-)3!! out of Iraq...I was watching it on TV as most and I cheered. ** shrugs**...whats the difference? nothing really. The Star Wars reference from earlier...guess I'm a Storm Trooper. And when the US Blew up the planet Alderran..I cheered. Innocent people died then, trust me they had to...I drove threw the aftermath. And I heard stories from the locals about things that happened, and I know somethings I did. No man, woman, or child is completly innocent. My good friend had a 5 year old point a 9mm at him. so hey...gotta think...this kids perspective is gonna be '' US bad '' cuz thats what his parents tell him. Part of everything is upbringing and culture. Cant hold that against anyone. You can try to understand it, but cant hold it against them.

And if you wanna ask the religious question...for anyone of any faith...(( I'm not religous but I understand ))...Maybe its a '' Test of Faith'' * shrugs* thats the way I would see it. I'm a firm believer of things happen for a reason. That theres a method to the madness.

But everyone should ask themselves well... what do I believe in and would you fight for it? Thats all these people are doing. You can call if being faithful, patriotic, or plum crazy. Or Evil or being the greater good whatever. Its just all perspective. Theres no right or wrong one...just piece of mind

[Pirog]

Darth_Tater>

Thanks for posting. It is very interesting to hear a veteran with a sensible view. Most American soldiers (or at least they have claimed to be) that I have discussed with on the Internet have all been "Gung Ho" war enthusiasts.

Stan>

God does was God does. I can't answer for God can I?

But isn't that "God works in mysterious ways" defense unsatisfying for you as well? For me as non-religious person with a critical view on pretty much everything it just seems amazing that people allow themselves to put on such blinders every time they confront an argument they can't fit into their belief system.
Wouldn't it be wise to at least question this god you are going to let influence your entire life?

Surely god would be "big enough" to not hold that against you?

I'm NOT God's judge. I believe you'll have a chance to confront God on the issue some day. Ask him.

The question wasn't intended for God. It was meant for you, as a test on how you define the values Good and Evil. I must say I'm a bit disappointed that you chose the religious disclaimer instead of trying to answer it.

(Sorry for taking this off-topic discussion...perhaps, if Stan would like to comment it further, it could be moved to a separate thread?)

Edit: I hope my reply didnt seem hostile or unfriendly. I know that I sometimes appear a bit rough when I write But I am very interested in religion and it is very frustrating when there are so many dead ends in interesting discussion because of the "God works in mysterious ways" defense.

[The Sociologist]

I think the whole debate can be summed up simply...

View 1: There is a basic human moral code. Good is good, bad is bad. Therefore, evil is evil.

View 2: There is no code. Everything is a matter of perspective... good can be bad from one viewpoint, and bad is good from the other. Everything is relative.

Oddly enough I tend to ascribe to View 1, but even so there is a problem. Remember the movie Independence Day and they guy who rammed the alien ship for the sake of his kids? Yes, well I suppose from the perspective of the aliens he would be a "suicide bomber". But we as audience are expected to applaud him as sacrificing all for the sake of our human culture against forces that were overwhelmingly technologically advanced and somehow...alien.

What if there are people on this earth who view Anglo-American military might in exactly the same light? As massively technologically advanced and precisely somehow...alien. And directly threatening the preservation of their own culture. So alien, in fact, that the usual strictures about right and wrong, good and evil, simply do not apply.

Let's put it this way. Imagine your neighbor has fallen in with the wrong company--maybe he has some friends over from the IRA or the BNP. Now instead of sending round a few coppers with truncheons or maybe even a SWAT team, Scotland Yard orders up an air strike and jets scream overhead loosing off cruise missiles and 500 pound bombs, while you cower under your bed with your children in the house next door as the debris rains down. Meanwhile the authorities don't even attempt to keep lists of any civilian casualties from the resulting collateral damage. That is the story of Fallujah.

So what we have is a kind of racism, though it's focus is more on religion. Because you are a Muslim, your life is worth far far less than if you were an Anglo-Saxon protestant. So much so that, without further investigation, civilian houses will be bombed from the air on the mere word of informers rather than risking the lives of any "white" troops on the ground. Pure racism, that's all it is. And hence the further impact on Muslim populations elsewhere, and the worldwide and growing sense of alienation. This is a very very serious matter.

You Brits are now teetering on the brink of an internal civil war as a result.

[Surly]

Anglo-saxon protestants? You are aware that the reformation happened a significant length of time after the Saxon/Norman/Roman divide had become somewhat of a non-issue, replaced by English/Celtic/French hostilities...?

And an internal civil-war? How exactly can you have an external civil war, considering the two contradict?

Anyway, having got that off my chest....

I think you are vastly overestimating the hostilities felt by most British people. I live down the road from a large town with a very significant Asian population. You think that because the bombers were of Pakistani descent, that our country would declare war on our Asian population? How extraordinarily naive.

And I wonder how many Americans realise the similarities between this and the IRA? Obviously they are not the same... but considering how many Americans I have met who still think the UK is oppressing Northern Ireland... the ignorance is astonishing.

Anyway, my point is that we are far from 'teetering on the brink of civil war'. After the popular backlash against the bombings, I don't think there is a huge divide... The fact that you assume any Muslim would feel 'alienated' is as racist as anything else... The vast majority of Muslims have distanced themselves from the bombings... don't use generalisations as backing for wild scaremongering.

[The Sociologist]

<QUOTES>
According to investigators, the interrogators told him his mother and sisters were whores, forced him to wear a bra, forced him to wear a thong on his head, told him he was homosexual and said that other prisoners knew it.

They also forced him to dance with a male interrogator and subjected him to strip searches with no security value, threatened him with dogs, forced him to stand naked in front of women and forced him onto a leash, to act like a dog. He was kept in solitary confinement for 160 days, and interrogations for 18 to 20 hours a day, for 48 out of 54 days.

Schmidt's investigation concluded that was not torture. *coughs*

An FBI agent said a prisoner was bound on the head with duct tape, his mouth covered, because he was chanting verses from the Qur'an.

Gen. Bantz J. Craddock, commander of U.S. Southern Command, said he overruled the recommendation that Miller be reprimanded. Craddock said Miller did not violate any U.S. laws or policies.
</QUOTES>

http://www.cbc.ca/story/world/national/ ... 50713.html
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 00371.html

Shall we continue our discussion of the nature of good and evil in the light of the above?