London Blasts

[Pie]

that you can't use the force in the real world. And that the empier was ruled by DARTH SIDIUS! a compleatly evle person who wanted to eradicate the jedy and rule the univers. the (??what are they calld again) is the remaining of the jedy and their frends as they defend themself and try to oferthrou(?) the empier and restor peac to the galaxy.

yes i know, ime a star wars freak.

Try a little replace there, Pie:
Darth Sidius = George Bush
Jedy = mullah's, religious leaders, the fighters for justice, whatever
(??what are they calld again) = Al Qaida
the univers = the world
the empier = USA & allies

That's what Pirog is saying, from their perspective.

Jur.

and i completly understand that. its just that both the"Empier" and "Resestance" have good ideas. There both trying to make the world a better place(in there prospective). but we both really nead to have a sit doun with each other. We wont be negotiating with the terrorists, we will be asking them what they are trying to do.

[formerly known as hf]

There is no nobility in these kind of attacks whatsoever. It's pure an simple cowardice.

If you feel the world is unjust and want to protest about it, you don't turn to terrorism. I don't care what you have been through.

I agree - but neither is the war that is currently being waged on Iraq noble - at least not as long asthe reasons given for the war continue to be lies - and even if the real reasons were admitted, that might just be worse...
- whatever the war is against - it certainly isn't terrorism, or certainly not all terrorists by any means

terrorism can NEVER be eradicated - and can not be fought by wars - wars are between countries, between nations, beentween politically bounded territories. Terrorism does not adhere to any of these. Terrorists are fighting a different type of battle, a different type of war. The US, the UK and their allies have been short sighted in thinking that they can fight terrorism on the old terms of war.

[formerly known as hf]

sorry Pirog - I like your analogy - and I like the way it should make people think about these things from another perspective - George Bush has tried so hard, along with others, to fool us into thinking that 'good' and 'evil' are fixed and indisputible.

Good and evil are two of the most subjective terms ever, they are a product of position, persepctive, and opinion of the individual.

But understanding this will never lead me to understanding reasonings behind acts of terrorism. Neither will it help me understand the reasons behind the 'war on terror'.

On another note. I'm glad there was some movement in the G8 - my biggest fear was that this act of terrorism would suceed in distracting the summit from making any movements. The movement is pitiful, no where near what is needed to tackle poverty. But it is something. We're moving forward - albeit far too slowly...

[Pirog]

But understanding this will never lead me to understanding reasonings behind acts of terrorism. Neither will it help me understand the reasons behind the 'war on terror'.

I do hope that it didn't seem like I was applauding the terrorist attacks or anything. Although I can understand the reasons for doing it I of course think that terrorist attacks are wrong.

I'm always on the side of peace and diplomacy

But it is weird that some people who support the war on for example Iraq think that terrorists are cowards. They are fighting back the only way possible...sure, it would be even more brave to stand in the open like Rambo and fire shots from their rifle on the American tanks, at best scratching some paint of the surface, but it would also be total idiocy. Terrorism is the only way for the weaker part in a conflict to succesfully fight the enemy when diplomacy has failed.

I think a big issue we in the Western world must realize is that our help isn't always wanted. Our nations have grown strong to a large degree because we have had a civil war where the people fought for their democracy etc. When USA rides in and saves the day they also do so knowing that these people will always have to view them as the big liberators and benefactors...and considering how Americans still talk about how they single handedly saved the world in WW2 we all now that they usually aren't very modest about their help
But the lack of feeling that the "people" worked together to rid themselves of their oppressors is probably what makes almost every conflict that the West has interfered in a mess of different groups fighting each other once the original war is over.

We partly have the same problem in Sweden. Since we haven't been a part of a war or some similar struggle in centuries we haven't got the same sense of nationalism and patriotism as most other countries have. This year was the first that we started celebrating our "national day" and let me tell you, it was a weak sight. People didnt have a clue what we were supposed to do
(To me it is a good thing, since I think nationalism mainly has negative consequences, but that is another discussion...)

[Stan]

Good and Evil are absolute terms they are not subjective AT ALL. Good and Evil are not dependent on perspective nor are they dependent on culture. Good is good and Evil is evil, everywhere and always.

Not sure why people would want to call Evil anything other than Evil.

[Pie]

the world isn't just black and wight. there are yellows, purples, orenges, and my personal favorit's, blue and green.

but you really get the point. both the people(i don't know who) that are fighting the war and the tarorists are cind of like, gray. becous they have a mix of good and bad in them.

[formerly known as hf]

Sorry stan - that's just not true - pie has the idea

A terrorist thinks it's good to bomb a bus - we say it's evil. Why? Because that's our perception of what evil is. The terrorist's perception is different. Hence, to the terrorist, good and evil are different - so good and evil are a matter of perception. If they weren't subjective - the terrorists would think they would be doing something evil.
Just because the terrorist thinks they're right - doesn't mean they are. And snap for everyone else. Just because you think you know what is good and what is evil - doesn't mean you are right.Who are you, who am I, who is anyone to say what is good and evil for everyone else?

[Surly]

I was on the circle line the day before the bombings. If they'd picked one day earlier... and my uncle goes that route every day. If he hadn't missed his train and taken a later one...

Anyway, my point is that it is very easy to talk about this from far away. But it could easily have been my body they pulled from the wreckage... so if you want to talk about the politics, at least show some sensitivity about what actually happened.

Sorry if this post is offensive... but it is a little too soon for me to be dicussing this so dispassionately.

[Stan]

I'm pretty passionate about it to. I was there less than 2 short weeks before. I think you're spot on to be offended by politics of this situation.

It's not me or any other human to determine what's evil and what's good. It's God's job. I just believe what he says and have faith in it (even if I can't live up to the ideal).

Sorry. Bombing a train is evil no matter who you are...it's just that some people decide to do evil things.

If there are people out there that want to condone this type of behavior just because someone would claim that to their sensibilities it's ok, well then go ahead...but until the world unites to say it's wrong and unacceptable to EVERYONE then it's going to keep happening. I think it's despicable and someone who thinks it's not should re-evaluate their belief system.

Sometimes in life things aren't the way we wish they were. The case of good and evil is a good example of one of those times. It's easy for me to say that everything I do is OK because I want to do it. That's makes me my own god doesn't it. It's another for someone to swallow their pride to admit that they and others do bad things.

Sorry...I completely disagree that this example is a gray area. Ludicrous.

[Stan]

By the way...if you don't believe in God there's human society. Human society also calls that act despicable and wrong. So, there's no excuse that way either.

[Pirog]

Stan>

Just for knowing how you define good and evil:

If it is always under any circumstances evil to bomb a bus, then a lot of what God has done according to the Bible must fall into the same category...making him evil...right? Didn't he for example act out several terrorist attacks against the Egyptians until they released the Jews?

In my view good and evil doesn't even exist (and neither does an ultimate truth)...but if you chose to believe in it you should have some serious problems combining it with your faith without transcending into hypocracy

[Stan]

Pirog>

God does was God does. I can't answer for God can I? I also won't judge his actions. I'm NOT God's judge. I believe you'll have a chance to confront God on the issue some day. Ask him.

If there's no God, then no need to ponder the question. But, if you're wrong, good luck when you 2 meet. Either way, that's up to you and Him.

I don't have any dillusion that I'll convince you or anyone else. However, I do think people should hear an alternate opinion on Good and Evil.

And, I can't and won't try to prove anything. I'm NOT God's lawyer. But, I have made a personal commitment to God...(one which I admittedly fail to live up to as well as I wish). Since that time I have been witness to the amazing things God can do in a person's life. Therefore, I AM God's witness.

If it isn't God and there's a "placebo effect" in my life, then so be it. It definitely works for me even if I don't understand everything that you appear to understand about Christianity. In my experience, knowledge isn't always wisdom.

BACK ON TOPIC

In any case, bombing a train full of people going to work is evil. I don't care if just you or 99% of the rest of world believes otherwise.

[wichita]

Greed and lust are just as evil in God's eyes as murder, yet Western society celebrates these things. In that sense, we are all sinners in God's eye...a point which the Holy Spirit verifies in Scripture.


My reason for looking at the situation from the terrorists' perspective is not an simpathetic attempt to justify their actions...because I do disagree with them...but more an act of rational empathy. Empathizing (loving) your enemy is a commandment from God that most "christians" in today's world unfortunately overlook. We just slap the evil label on people and beat them over the head with a Bible expecting them to change. What should be done, and what God and Christ tended to do most often from what I have been able to see, is to approach the individual with arguments from their own perspective to show them the error of their ways. Yes God has killed people in the past. Yes God will kill people in the past. But we are all sinners, and self-righteously throwing a label on another sinner is no way for a real child of God to behave.

That is my biggest problem with the attitude towards the terrorism. The coward label is not the proper way to view them or approach them. It is the wrong way to villanize them....and they are villans. Honestly, I feel the best way to fight the terrorism is to step back and do some self reflection to see why they hate us bad enough to kill and try to honestly decide whether or not they truly do have a moral point.


Sometimes the other guy on the playground is trying to pick a fight with you because you are a jackass. Solution = don't be a jackass anymore.


.

[Stan]

I think you're 100% correct. But, there are times when evil people will do evil things no matter the reason...hmmmm....I seem to recall an episode in the Bible when a perfect man by the name of Jesus was crucified. He did nothing to be labeled a jackass yet was nailed to a tree.

I hear what you're saying and I don't disagree on any single point. But, the act of blowing up a train is evil.

I think empathy and love for an enemy should be embraced as a commandment...since it was commanded. But, there's nothing wrong with calling evil what it is...in fact, it's Biblical. When Jesus was speaking to His disciples when some of them were planning on leaving them He said, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!"

He called evil what it was. There should not be confusion on the issue. With that said, I don't claim I'm more loved than a terrorist. Though society would label me a better person because I haven't killed anyone, I myself don't claim to be a better man. But, I am less confused and most importantly, I've been forgiven.

[Pie]

naild to a cross, thank you very much.

But heres the question, are we totaly "jesus" like? Are we perfict? No. We are good, in the sence that we have a just governnment, but is our government perfict? By all means, no. It has it's oun faults to deal with.

and also, let me take up the "Star wars" story for a secont. so the evil guy is in command of the empier, he tells everyone that the resistance(the jedi) are just terrorists, when they are actually good. that isn't exactly true, so let me say this

the republic, it went to war with the seperatists. why?it probably has somthing to do with nabu. so, becous the seperatists did one evil thing, the republic attaked the seperatists when they had faults of there oun.

but we really can't "take a step back" yet, becous the terorists are still doing good the rong way, and unless we can talk to osama bin ladin, or everyone els that is doing good the bad way.