London Blasts

[Cookie]

There are something like 45 dead now and 300 injured.

Yes, you’ve tried it now b****r off. We’re not scared, no, you won’t change us. Even if we are scared, you can still b****r off.

Couldn't have put it any better.

Napolean tried it, the Germans tried it, the IRA tried it. But still, Britons get on the underground and bus systems the next day and get on with it.

[formerly known as hf]

indeed - that sentence sums it up very well.

And pie - discussion about the war on terror can continue elsewhere - but you clearly have no grasp of what London and Britain has experienced as far as terroism goes. I've seen many attacks during my life here in London - this is the first major one by an islamist group - the 'war on terror' is a war on the islamic fundamentalists (and note that, as tony blair has said, the vast and overwhelming majority of muslims are equally appaled by these acts)

France opposes the 'war on terror' - yet it has seen some of the worst terrorists attacks in the past. Not all terrorists are islamist fundamentalists - the IRA, the Basque seperatists, the various groups in eastern Europe and Turkey
- Bush's 'war on terror' is aimed at a very specific set of terrorists. Furthermore, not all Birts support that war. In fact, as shown by the millions that have demonstrated, few do. Don't be fooled into thinking that this war on terror is the only or the best way to go about it.

I only hope the momentum about poverty, debt relief and the like that has built up in the past few weeks hasn't been lost for the G8. London will, and has survived.

I, along with countless others, will get on the tube tomorrow morning, will get a bus, a train. Life will continue as normal. London will, and has, survived, with great resolve. I only hope the focus can shift back to the thousands that die each day, not as a result of terrorist activities, which, as has been said, will always be a 'when', not an 'if' in many capital cities, but to those that die when there is all the possibility to save them. I hope the eight leaders do not give into what the terrorists want, by letting them steal their concentration, their resolve, to take the attention away. If the attention fully shifts to the terrorists, than we will have let them achieve something they want...

[The Sociologist]

The 'war on terror' is a war on the islamic fundamentalists...

That isn't true. In Iraq the Americans and British overthrew a secular--albeit brutal and authoritarian--Baathist government that was decidedly opposed to Islamic fundamentalism, and replaced it with an essentially fundamentalist one that has a deep and obvious loyalty to Iran. They did so in the name of what? Oil? Israel? Halliburton?

Speaking for myself, I love London and have many fond memories of the tube and of long rides on the top of double-deckers. So my heart goes out to all londoners and I certainly hope that nobody from the game was hurt.

But the sad fact is that in war there are no innocents. A nation which chooses war chooses the consequences of war. So it would be better for the British to reflect on the meaning and implications of this "war" that they are supposed to be waging.

Exactly who are they supposedly fighting and why? When their government publishes exact figures on the number of civilians killed at Fallujah, then perhaps the British will possess the humility necessary to speak with sincerity on such topics as the death of innocents.

[wichita]

I agree. The "War on Terror" is aimed to be just that, to irradicate terrorism. At least that is how all the propaganda has been propagated. That's why it has infuriated me ever since it got coined because it is a friggin' daft idea that one of the most primitive militray concepts of human existence can possibly be irradicated. Terrorism is indeed a 'when', not an 'if' occurrance and always will be until there are no more greedy evil people in the world.....don't hold your breath for that one to happen.


And you can't blame the average American for being oblivious to the IRA or just about any other non-Islamic terrorist group, because frankly our unbiased media and fantastic educational system gives them relatively no attention. I would say that the average Joe Schmoe here would say that Belfast is probably just a sleepy little potatoe farming town in Scotland.

[Pie]

T always thought that the I.R.S was trying to make a new Irlend. its a good idea, but there going at it the rong way

Terorism is the idea that your doing somthing good for humanity. Somthig so good for humanity that they have to kill inocent people in the proces. Shure, im all for america changing some of its ways" Hollywood has a lot of bad parts" and there are probably a few terrorist groups trying to protect the Echosystems' of the world. And ime all for helping the inviroment, but herting people to get it? Thats not right.

[Pirog]

I think this terrorist strike will have an impact on the support for the Iraq conflict and "war on terror". Americans have a tendancy to rally up and support their leaders (even if they opposed them before) during incidents like this, but Europeans are usually more critical than that.

I hope it will start a healthy debate about the possibility to ever win a war on terror.

This will probably piss people off, but I think there is a certain nobility to the effort of saving the life of your people by blowing yourself up in a terrorist attack. Because I hope you don't believe the talk about the terrorists being motivated by spreading fear and hatred in the world...that is just ridiculous. Purely evil crooks only exists in movies and even they would never sacrifice their own lives just for being rotten bastards. The terrorists of course think that they are doing the right thing and fighting for the "good" side...they just have a different perspective than us.
(I of course still think it is wrong...but I object calling these terrorists, or freedom fighters depending on which side you are on, cowards. They are a lot braver than sitting in a bomb plane and erradicating the lives of people you wont ever see.)

In Madrid the terrorist attack lead to (or at least speeded up) Spain withdrawing their troops...so there is no doubt that terrorists strikes are a very efficient method.

As for civilian lives lost it is of course a tragedy...but a lot of people seem to forget that "our" bombing raids in foreign countries, no matter how clinical we call the attacks, kills a lot of civilians too.

Lastly, I would like to point out that I dont support these terrorists or their acts. I simply want to further the discussion by viewing the problem from their perspective. I also hope nobody gets offended by this...it is not my intention. And I hope the world will soon go back to trying to sort things with diplomacy instead of arms...

[Pirog]

Before people start to pour hate on me...just imagine this.

A small rebel force, heavily outnumbered and lacking almost all resources, manages to strike at the centre of power in the world, destroying an entire planet...no doubt killing hundreds of thousands if not millions of civilians.

Luke Skywalker, the hero, saves the day...but what is the real difference between his act and the one of terrorists IRL?
No doubt there is a genuine fear that USA and Western culture will take over the entire world and destroy their old customs...and seeing that the poor farmers etc. that the terrorist groups recruit from has far less education that us, no doubt they think that USA/Bush/Western World is pure evil...so what is the difference?

[Pie]

that you can't use the force in the real world. And that the empier was ruled by DARTH SIDIUS! a compleatly evle person who wanted to eradicate the jedy and rule the univers. the (??what are they calld again) is the remaining of the jedy and their frends as they defend themself and try to oferthrou(?) the empier and restor peac to the galaxy.

yes i know, ime a star wars freak.

[Pirog]

Pie>

But force is used all the time. America used force when invading Iraq, police officers use force to capture criminals etc. Given you are right, America and most (all) other democracies are founded on the wrong grounds...

And I'm sure many terrorists view George Bush as equal in evil to Darth Sidius...and nobody can deny that USA is trying to take over the world, even if it is (mostly) a cultural imperialism.

And while doing the whole Star Wars reference thing...the Jedi with their outdated principles, non-modernistic ways and standing opposed to democracy (a corrupted one, but still...) can easily be described as fanatical religious fundamentalists

The only difference between them is your own personal feelings about what is right and not...what is justified and what isn't. And that is my whole point. You can't try to kill every terrorist, since these people think they are fighting for freedom and what is right. That just makes them desperate enough to, metaphorically speaking, blow up the planet...

[Jur Schagen]

that you can't use the force in the real world. And that the empier was ruled by DARTH SIDIUS! a compleatly evle person who wanted to eradicate the jedy and rule the univers. the (??what are they calld again) is the remaining of the jedy and their frends as they defend themself and try to oferthrou(?) the empier and restor peac to the galaxy.

yes i know, ime a star wars freak.

Try a little replace there, Pie:
Darth Sidius = George Bush
Jedy = mullah's, religious leaders, the fighters for justice, whatever
(??what are they calld again) = Al Qaida
the univers = the world
the empier = USA & allies

That's what Pirog is saying, from their perspective.

Jur.

[Pirog]

Thanks!

[Cookie]

And let us try to keep this thread from deteriorating into politics, so go start another thread for that. This thread is about something important, so leave your trivial bickering at home for now.

Oh dear.

[Gyrus]

Hope all is well in London.


We (as Turkey) suffered a lot from different terrorist origins.


I blame all terrorist attacks, take place on the globe.

[Cookie]

This will probably piss people off, but I think there is a certain nobility to the effort of saving the life of your people by blowing yourself up in a terrorist attack. Because I hope you don't believe the talk about the terrorists being motivated by spreading fear and hatred in the world...that is just ridiculous. Purely evil crooks only exists in movies and even they would never sacrifice their own lives just for being rotten bastards. The terrorists of course think that they are doing the right thing and fighting for the "good" side...they just have a different perspective than us.

There is no nobility in these kind of attacks whatsoever. It's pure an simple cowardice.

If you feel the world is unjust and want to protest about it, you don't turn to terrorism. I don't care what you have been through.

[wichita]

This will probably piss people off, but I think there is a certain nobility to the effort of saving the life of your people by blowing yourself up in a terrorist attack. Because I hope you don't believe the talk about the terrorists being motivated by spreading fear and hatred in the world...that is just ridiculous. Purely evil crooks only exists in movies and even they would never sacrifice their own lives just for being rotten bastards. The terrorists of course think that they are doing the right thing and fighting for the "good" side...they just have a different perspective than us.

This is completely true. The key word here is perspective. The definition of right and wrong can become incredibly different depending on which side of the fence you are standing on. It's unfortunate that the average person is incapable of remaining neutral enough to sit back and logically assess a situation before drawing a conclusion and passing condemnation to one side.

I'm sorry, but not all cultures are the same. They don't have to play by the same rules. And I agree with Pirog, it's not cowardice, it takes levels of conviction and courage that are nearly unheard of in our half-assed Western culture. It's easy to pigeonhole things we don't understand or refuse to accept into labels of cowardice, or evil, or ignorance, or bigotry. I guess that is why we the people of Europe, North America are better than the other guys.

Terrorists are simply activists with fewer behavioral restrictions. They have a cause. They fight for that cause. That is what binds them together. But if we called them activists, we wouldn't be able to hate them so easily, because in the Western world being an activist is automatically a good thing...fighting for causes, fighting opression, trying to bring your vision of the world to come to be...aren't these common themes? And from the perspective of the Islamic terrorists out there who are still coming after the West, we are doing the same thing to them only on a much more subtle and dangerous level. We are destroying their culture, "killing" their civilians, corrupting their morals....the very same thing that we hate them for. The only difference is that we don't physically kill.

It is in a sense the exact same thing without the blood, gunsmoke, or shrapnel but it is far more potent. We don't destroy the body we destroy the soul. We don't blow up 20 innocent civilians, we just pick them up in bars at last call and f*** 'em. We don't treat or women as inferior citizens, we just turn them into sex symbols.

Whatever....I'm sure I'm probably wrong and a complete ass for thinking this way. Sorry for trying to be reasonable. You can hate me along with Pirog, but I think we are just exhibiting what everyone in the Western world claims to have....reasonable free thought.