Massacres

[rklenseth]

If it is now impossible for anyone to kill anyone, then how is it that killings and massacres are still occurring? Because they are still occurring.

These are probably smaller groups versus larger groups or groups that are around the same size? Correct? Or people using the hit and run tactic of the pirates or people using Al-Abhol's tactic of retreating to behind locked doors.

There are still ways for fighting to happen just that I think it needs to be a little better balanced than it is now.

[nitefyre]

As Nick said, there shouldn't be an OOC resolution to IC issues, if there are any, not that I see any.

Both offensive and defensive forces are faced with the same problems: activity of characters, acquiring/outfitting of gear and fighting-gameplay (tiredness, skill, tactics).

Whereas an offensive force may use locked boats with resting facilities, a defending town may use locked buildings with cots. Or, if it's a landlocked location, the usage of (hit and run) vehicles or (overbearing force used in) securing buildings, would be put into practice accordingly. How is that unbalanced?

These are the same challenges faced by both an offensive and defensive force. Any shady area of balance can be equalled out by superior personnel, tactics, etc. Why involve OOC incentives?

[nitefyre]

First off, if you're only looking for a character simulation game, play the Sims. If you're only looking towards violence, play Grand Theft Auto and all that, and get some therapy. Cantr should never, as long as I'm still playing it, be to either extreme.

Defense should be an IC problem, not an OOC one.

It's hypocritical to see that offense is being made into an OOC problem, and not solved ICly.

In response to making Cantr into a game you have to check upwards of four times a day, like RKL is suggesting, it will be severely damaging to the majority of the player base who have other things in their life to juggle in. I'm not looking forward to that commitment to Cantr, and I know I'm not alone.

Also, the hit-back system which I brought into the discussion is a really poor concept. On one of the Cantr information pages, it says that there are no computer played characters. What you're doing by automating the system is making the characters play themselves, which really defeats the purpose of having the player. We mind as well all leave Cantr to play itself.

Obviously, Cantr is meant for a wide array of players, which makes the game interesting and intriguing. We should moderate any changes to make sure it doesn't too drastically make the game unplayable for one side or the other. Any change that is made, must take this into account, for I am not prepared to play a game I don't enjoy. That's not to say I wouldn't be looking forward to some subtle changes in gameplay. Therefore, I feel really sorry for GAC/Jos who has to walk this tight rope of pleasing the players, whilst still centering it on what [GAC] wants to do with the game.

Tsk tsk: One way to end the complaining is to shut down the forums

Now, Nitefyre, you're putting words into my mouth I didn't say. I never said you had to check 4 times a day but am rather offering a solution to the current problem. Cantr has become far to safe. And violence far to impossible. We bring it back to the way it was then we have the problems we solved such as the four person massacres. But now we are to the point where nothing, literally nothing is happening. To fix that we can make a small change. Maybe not make it every Cantr hour. Perhaps only every two Cantr hours. We can start off making small steps and see what happens. We have solved one problem and made the larger the group the more powerful but we have made it so impossible that no one can kill anyone. That has to be fixed with a new solution.

You could always offer another alternative to this problem. We're not going to go back to the way it use to be. So we have to work with what we have.

No, RKL, I did not put words your mouth. I'll quote below exactly what you said and how I deduced my paraphrase.

Right now, one of the reason why Cantr has become so stagant is that many of the leaders and governments in power really have no fear of losing power or dying. <b>Add in one hit per hour </b>and then false sense of security is no more. But at the same time these same assassins would be unlikely and unable to massacre an entire town due to tiredness, random damage, skills etc... So everything in the end balances out. Cantr society won't become stagant because no one can be killed and killing many is impossible for one or a small group of peolple versus larger groups. </b>

Hitting one person per hour would mean not only checking Cantr 4 times a day, but rather upwards of 8 times a day (for the 8 hours per day)!

That is ridiculous!

[rklenseth]

The current system is out of balance in regards to one on one combat or if you're attacking small groups of people in a small group.

I don't believe this is an IC problem nor do I believe there is a true IC solution to the problem. This is an OOC unbalance of how the violence system works.

[rklenseth]

And I don't see a problem with that. Otherwise it will always be long drawn out battle where no one ever dies or we can go back to the old way where just a few people can massacre 40 in a matter of seconds.

At least if we go this route with the way combat is now then things will be more realistic.

Anyways, it would take about a day or so for someone to actually get a kill in so chances are that a person being attacked will be awake at some point during that day. If not then that is the way it goes. I lost many of my characters this way. Cantr is a game really meant to be played at least once a day with some brief periods of recess (sometimes I go camping on the weekend), but if you only play a few times a week or are often absent for long periods of time then Cantr isn't really for you.

And if your character is a leader in town that suck as defending then he or she will have to come up with a new tactic at surviving and staying in power. IE. Being behind locked doors and allowing advisors take care of business, bodyguards, secret service units inflitrating assassin cells, etc...

Right now, one of the reason why Cantr has become so stagant is that many of the leaders and governments in power really have no fear of losing power or dying. Add in one hit per hour and then false sense of security is no more. But at the same time these same assassins would be unlikely and unable to massacre an entire town due to tiredness, random damage, skills etc... So everything in the end balances out. Cantr society won't become stagant because no one can be killed and killing many is impossible for one or a small group of peolple versus larger groups.

Before these changes about a year ago we were out of balance way and now with the changes we are out of balance the other way. Now we can get to some middle ground perhaps.

If you're going to quote me then quote everything I say not just the parts to twist what I say into making your argument valid.

Note what I said in bold.

[rklenseth]

And if the one hit per hour or, I think this would be better, one hit every two hours were to be implemented than attacking someone should cause more tiredness than it does now. Just a little bit more.

[nitefyre]

Then you evidently don't understand the repurcussions of your own suggestion.

Okay, it may take an entire day for someone to kill another person, giving you supposedly one day to respond. Then let's put this into a practical situation, where you lose an average of 10% per hit. Obviously, tiredness, skill, shields, etc, all have a part to play in this, so I kept it to a very low 10%.

Hour 1: You are attacked for 10%.(Yeah, the guy who is attacking you logs in every hour to shoot you )
Hour 2: You are attacked for 10%.
Hour 3: You are attacked for 10%.
Hour 4: You are attacked for 10%.
Hour 5: You are attacked for 10%.
Hour 6: You are attacked for 10%.
Hour 7: You are attacked for 10%. (You wake up, during your daily check. Your total strength now is about 30%, weakening you tremendously)
Hour 8: You attack back for 5%. (At this point, you'll have to login every hour to get your shot in.)
Several Hours Later: Your real life having been postponed, your character is dead anyways.

If it comes down to this, say goodbye to Thomas Hobbes, John Locke and the rest of my account. Or is this your scheme?

[kinvoya]

Doesn't tiredness prevent more than a couple of effective hits on other chars per day? And wouldn't they get progressively weaker as the char got tireder? And, unless the char has a way to rest, they probably wouldn't be completely recovered in one day, would they? I don't hit anybody much so maybe it's changed?

[rklenseth]

I also said lets try it with a hit every two hours and who is on for every Cantr hour of the day anyways? I probably am only on for perhaps 3 Cantr hours and use less than 20 minutes of my time unless something big happens.

Plus, like Kinvoya said, tiredness would affect their attacks. Up tiredness a little bit more preventing getting in only two full strength attacks a day on a single person plus leaving them vulnerable from attacks from you and other people that may side with you.

[Nick]

Almost every value that I know of in however damage and tiredness is calculated needs to be changed.
You get too tired from swinging once. You should be able to hit more than once a day. As of now, you can pretty much only hit once, and sometimes your second hit will be moderately effective. Forget about anything after that.
3 people with sabres and iron shields SHOULD be a huge threat. Consider the fact that many towns just use the OOC factors that make killing people so hard, as a makeshift town guard. Towns without armed people should not be very difficult to massacre. Yes, it would suck if it happened, but it should be a possibility. Or else there is little motivation to bond together as a society.

[ephiroll]

Cantr has become far to safe. And violence far to impossible.

These few words sum up everything that has been wrong with Cantr for months.

First and formost, Cantr is sopposed to be a society simulater yet too many people are forgetting that one little fact. How did society's come to be? Well, they come to be because of violence and security issues, because the world was very dangerous and it was all too easy to be killed either by wild animals or by roving gangs of marauders. If no one had a reason to band together for safety then we would all be wondering around aimlessly still living in caves. There would have been no reason to do anything else that eventually lead to the worldwide society that we have today. The world is violent, dangerous, any of us could die at any time whether we recognize or like it, but it is not something that is just going to go away, we either deal with it or fall by the wayside.

The situation with Cantr is what would happen if there was indeed a God and we as individuals had the power to complain enough to have most of the violence erased from the world and stops put in place to prevent any further wrong doing. No one has a reason to band together, no one has a reason to form new towns, no one has a real reason to do much of anything, because there isn't a reason to do anything when you can get all the food you want for free and you can rest easy knowing that anyone who attacks you will be so tired after doing so that there isn't any real threat to begin with. This whole situation is leading to cookie cutter, uninteresting chars who have nothing better to do then stand around all daying talking about the same stuff that the player would otherwise be talking about in RL.

[Antichrist_Online]

I am for more action, but all I think would be the introduction of more powerful weapons which are less accurate. If it wasn't for great wars there'd be no technological development. Think of all the technology that came out of warfare: Optics, Metalurgy, Computers, Tracked Vehicles, Advanced Surgery, Lasers, Rockets, Gunpowder, Barbed wire, Fire hardening, etc.

[Yo_Yo]

What are you talking about Ephiroll, theres plenty to do! You can

Get food
Talk
Get more food
.... talk
get some more food....
.... become a sleeper....

Thats a normal life. Or you have option B.

Get food
Get hematite
Spend forever making steel and whatnot...
Make sabres
Kill two animals and get as tired as fat elvis running a marathon...
Forget to grab food
Die
Notice some newspawn with a good present.


I dunno. I'm just not into crafting games. And this is all Cantr has become. I prefere to kill crafters to get my goods. Or steal them. It's too much work to... well work for it

[Missy]

What are you talking about Ephiroll, theres plenty to do! You can

Get food
Talk
Get more food
.... talk
get some more food....
.... become a sleeper....

Thats a normal life. Or you have option B.

Get food
Get hematite
Spend forever making steel and whatnot...
Make sabres
Kill two animals and get as tired as fat elvis running a marathon...
Forget to grab food
Die
Notice some newspawn with a good present.


I dunno. I'm just not into crafting games. And this is all Cantr has become. I prefere to kill crafters to get my goods. Or steal them. It's too much work to... well work for it

THIS, is the reason for pirates and lack of wars. Sorry to use you as an example Yo_Yo.


Wars are possible, but the people who could start them are out pirating, rather than taking the time to become integrated into a system/town where weapons are possible which would give them the power FOR a war.

Tiredness=a minor factor if you consider the patience and time and effort put into the war Pok had with Puk. Wars could happen much quicker still as well, but they'd be a lot less fun due to tiredness. At least now, people have to go to war for a reason!

[AoM]

Not entirely true, Missy. There are certainly characters embedded in societies who yearn to lead the masses of people into conflict and war. I believe it has been tried recently and the results are not good.

The problem right now, in my humble opinion, is that defense is too strong. There is only one way to deal with locks on buildings, and that is through crowbars. I believe that if you want to make attacking with an "army" a viable action, you're going to need other options for dealing with defensive structures. I think that buildings need to be vulnerable to destruction. Bombardment, pillaging, demolition... I think it has to happen.

But let's go back to the combat system for a second. Combat should never be a certainty. If we are striving for realism, balance, and fairness, we need to consider the extremes. A skilled fighter with a claymore should have the possibility of killing an unprotected, unskilled peasant in one hit. Due to the nature of the game, this should still be an unlikely occurance, but the possibility should be there. I think that the current problem with cantr can be summed up by saying that characters don't have enough of a sense of their own mortality. People need to fear death.

On the other hand. We have to make joining an organized, defensible society a more lucrative choice than wandering off and becoming a roving barbarian. Being a society game, we should reward societies and their armies more than the roving bands of thugs.

~AoM