Bye now

[kinvoya]

Had I been referring to protests I'm sure that would have been relevant, Nick.

Good effort on the continuing to have something snarky to say about every post, though. Soldier on!

[Nick]

People protest because they are 'fearful of and overreactive to change'.
I was pointing out that people complaining isn't just some new thing that came up. This is how Cantr has always been.
Good effort to say something irrelevant every post.

[kinvoya]

Well, now you're just copying me saying "good effort."

Stop saying what I say! I mean it! STOP OR I'M TELLING MOM!!!!

[Nick]

Nothing gets by you...
Smart cookie.

[Jos Elkink]

Especially the first half of this thread is very interesting. Neelix, thank you for the constructive criticism to the programming staff. I agree with all points raised by Judith, but can still see how our performance as Cantr staff can give the image to the players that you describe.

And deaf too. Current standing of the poll is now 82 against the new colour to 7 for the new colour (after more than a week) and it has still not changed back.

Here you go out-of-line, however ... Judith has just extensively described how staff is working really hard to get a lot of things done and then you start complaining that we did not make this super minor change within a few days after the poll closed. I said that we would listen to the poll and I keep promises - that does not mean I'm spending all my time checking my watch whether the week passed and then rush to a computer to implement these changes. I actually have a life besides Cantr ... and so do all staff members.

Some of your critique is very valid, however, especially concerning documentation. Cantr is not very well documented and this has too low priority for me. Most programmers are more interested in programming new features than in documenting them. And yes, that might be bad, but we're doing this as a hobby. If I get paid for my work, my client or boss can make demands to do better, but I'm not, and thus things that I don't like will have lower priority. If not, I'd soon enough quit with Cantr ...

That does not mean we're not trying to keep some professional standard, however, so I'm taking note of your criticism and I'll take it into account in the future.

Another issue that is raised on this forum is the idea that the ProgD should communicate more to the players and listen more to them. I must admit, again, that I often don't communicate too much. My roadmap posting was an attempt to change that somewhat, so that people at least know in what general direction I'm steering Cantr. Jur's work on deterioriation and repair is also an example of how we can do it ... He's more patient in this respect than I am, I fear. I'll try to be more informative about changes - it already changed a lot compared to, say, a year ago, I think.

For where listening to players is concerned, the problem is a bit bigger. Over the years I have been completely overwhelmed with suggestions. And yes, it leads to me ignoring many threads. I've seen loads and loads of writing on rewriting the violence system, for example. And yes, this is an important issue, but I would have to spend hours and hours reading this stuff if I want to properly listen to players. I don't have the energy/time/interest for this, I'm afraid. I prefer to develop a bit more instead - already bugs and new features are pending for way too long before they are implemented, and reading more and more won't help - implementing will. I think it already works quite well at the moment. Suggestions are posted on the forum, discussed by players, sometimes lead to nothing, and sometimes lead to a very clear suggestion that can then be posted on Flyspray and thus end up on the waiting list for programming. I can't say much is going wrong here.

Also, it should be noted that many players have different ideas of what is important and what is not, what is wished for and what is not. Different players have different ideas what Cantr is about and what has priority, and what one players really wishes for, another hates to see happening. It's impossible to satisfy everyone. In addition to that, I myself have a very strong opinion about what Cantr should be and what it shouldn't be and I'm really sorry to say that that idea will always be a reference against which I validate any suggestions. There is a certain idea behind Cantr and a certain vision of what kind of game Cantr should be and even when a large number of players want something that contradicts this vision, it will not be implemented. If we always listen to players, Cantr will only become more like so many other games that already exist, or will be a combination of so many compromises, that there is not clear and unique Cantr left.

Anyway, I think the core is that you have to think where staff members are coming from. I'll talk purely for myself now, but I have certain reasons why I run and play Cantr: I love programming, I like the teamwork among staff, and most of all, I want to continue playing a game I used to play in my youth (lego) and thus develop an online game that approaches that game. So I will program the way I enjoy programming, and develop the game towards that game I envision it could be. Sometimes I spend a lot of time doing things for Cantr I really don't enjoy - spending hours on setting up the server or repairing bugs or putting roads in the game or reading page after page about a complicated PD case or wading through endless posts on the forum - but at other times I avoid the parts I don't like to concentrate on what I really love doing, programming or playing or discussing Cantr. And within programming my own priorities are with developing parts that I like, not with those that are most important from a client/player perspective or that are simply most urgent. As long as I don't get paid, I will not shift those priorities.

Finally, one major priority has always been my life outside Cantr. My friends, social life, holidays, studies, family, fun, other hobbies, movies - all take precedence over Cantr. And I explicitly encourage all other staff members to do the same. If you don't like that, you'd better start donating tons of money, so we can hire staff ...

[Neelix]

Jos, I think you and I agree on a lot of points here.

However, one point is important here: If you think the communication with players is important (which I agree on, albeit with the more experienced players) and you know of yourself that you can't set yourself to do it, then delegate it! Some people love to help out with the game, but don't know how to program or in other ways, so let them do that.
There already is the Communications Department, but I'm not really sure whether that is part of their job description.

And Jos and Junesun already know this, but I might as well announce it here: I've decided to take up on Junesun's offer and join the programming department, to see how things are really going and if I can help to improve it.

[Nick]

If not, I'd soon enough quit with Cantr

Great, just keep it up guys.

So I will program the way I enjoy programming, and develop the game towards that game I envision it could be.

Now that's what I like to hear. I think your vision of the game that is Cantr is better than some who might want it to be practically a text based 'The Sims', or on the other side of the scale, a roleplaying message board with a neat interface. Everything you've thought has been worth adding really has been nice. Not at first. In fact, almost everything you add pisses EVERYONE off at first. But it gets tweaked, and then it makes our game better. This is probably the strongest argument for a test environment...

[Jos Elkink]

This is probably the strongest argument for a test environment...

Didn't Judith say there is a test environment? But yes, one that can be improved and my head is already working out ideas for this ...

However, one point is important here: If you think the communication with players is important (which I agree on, albeit with the more experienced players) and you know of yourself that you can't set yourself to do it, then delegate it! Some people love to help out with the game, but don't know how to program or in other ways, so let them do that.
There already is the Communications Department, but I'm not really sure whether that is part of their job description.

Yes, I love delegating ... And attempts have already been made, but it is actually a very difficult thing to delegate. You'd need someone who loves reading all those lengthy discussions, and can then summarize them in a way that I can read it very quickly. That's a laborous job and few people have the skills to summarise well ... We've had, and actually still kind of have, a 'suggestions gatekeeper' which was created exactly for this reason, but it never really works.

What does work is that suggestions that keep popping up at some point get my attention, and that some staff members that work closely with me point me at important suggestions. I guess it's something that works kind of naturally and that you can't really properly organise / delegate.

[Jos Elkink]

Oh, btw, I forgot to add in my somewhat lengthy post that I am actually quite impressed by Judith's extensive analysis ...

[Peanut]

Oh, btw, I forgot to add in my somewhat lengthy post that I am actually quite impressed by Judith's extensive analysis ...

You weren't the only one Jos.

[Junesun]

[Birdsall007]

I just have two issues that I need to address here.

1. It would have been impossible for us (players) to judge how little we liked the link colour change without actually seeing it. To suggest a forum topic to see how it would be received would have been a waste of time. I mean, I was one of the voices calling for a change, and as soon as it was changed, I realised my mistake.

2. Most programmers will have been questioned about the amount of time it has taken or will take to do a job. There is a lot more to programming that most people realise and it can take longer to put things back the way they were than it did to change them in the first place.

I just want to give my thanks to the programmers for all the work that they are doing.