Deterioration...again.

[west]

Flyspray'd.

[Jur Schagen]

C'mon guys... what do you expect? You walk along a road... you see your bow is damaged... you take it apart, but at the same time walk on... yeah you lost your bow...
Cancelling: same thing... why would you cancel reapair? True, I never thought you'd want to so didn't test it... that's why it's asking you how much time you want to spend, so you can pick what you want. I'm wondering if this bug is there on the diamond-ecrusted sabre too... just don't expect us to return it to you if you desperately want to try...

I'm not saying these aren't bugs, I'm saying you're making a lot of noise about it. I'm not gonna say all your bows will be returned, I'm saying you're expecting a lot... if all of you want to exploit the edges, that's fine, with a brand new (ha-ha) feature like this you can expect a bug or two... they'll get fixed, just stop whining like this. Put repair back on, RD, unless this bug gets really exploited some way.

If you want to repair your item, that's fine, sit down in some place and complete your job, and you'll be fine - there won't be any more resets unless anything more serious comes up.

I hope I'll be able to look into the code tomorrow.

Jur.

PS - the rates are an RD issue; yes there'll be balancing to do, slingshot-owners.

[swymir]

I don't like the idea of items rotting at the rate they are used. The whole point of deterioration is for items to deteriorate just to limit how many of them are. If they only go down when they are used. I would like to see them deteriorate rather quicklys othat repair is essential or you can just buy a new one. Of course people usually don't support anything I have to say because most feel the game is already too hard and I welcome challenges.

[Solfius]

I think most deterioration should come from use, with a small amount from "time damage".

As for repairing, seeing as we can make these things in days, it would make sense to be able to fix them quickly as well. I thinking a quarter of the days of which they've deteriorated through so far? (Assuming it works off a number of days counting down untill it crumbles)

[mortaine]

Jur,

Think of it the other way:
"Oh, look-- a repair icon! Hey, I'm travelling and the button is active-- does this mean I can repair my whip while I'm travelling? That would be interesting..." *click* "Where did my whip go?!? Oh, well-- I should go report this, since it's obviously a bug-- you shouldn't be able to just destroy something on the road like that...."

I can write a note and make an envelope and attack, hunt, and eat food while travelling, so already I know that the rules for what you can and cannot do while in motion are quite arbitrary.

And, yes, I would expect that a project that has 0% progress on it would not destroy the object being repaired when it's cancelled.

Since the players are basically doing your testing for you, perhaps you can be a little more, um, sympathetic, and consider returning the resources they've expended to help you test this feature.

[Genevieve]

I agree 100% with Mortaine and to be honest was quite offended at Jur's attitude. Losing what you are reparing on the road is a bug. It isn't something I would have thought would be a big deal. Why couldn't you make some simple repairs while walking?

As for doing a repair project and canceling it--I almost did! One of my charries is reparing his sabre...and poof..it is gone from his inventory! Well if his only weapon is not going to be usable for 11 hours, I almost did stop repairing it.........

so don't be such a jerk.

Thanks!

[Solfius]

I believe Jur was slightly annoyed about the current culture of complaining about every little change.

Considering the amount of his own time he has put into coding this I think he was hoping for a more sympathetic attitude when it came to the inevitable bugs which every implementation in Cantr has had since the beginning.

anything which may be interpreted as an insult is potential counter productive. Jerk is something which most people would interpret as an insult, however you meant it. Perhaps we could all bear in mind there's a large portion of communication you don't get when reading a post as opposed to face to face, and that can drastically affect how the tone and intention appear to the reader.

[The Sociologist]

Is it true that repairing doesn't use any resources? If so, then I have grave doubts about what the whole item-deterioration / repairs exercise was supposed to prove.

I thought the idea was to soak up surplus stuff, not soak up surplus time. There isn't any "surplus" time. Progress in the game is too slow as it is.

My idea was roughly this: you can only maintain something like a crossbow if you are supported by industries manufacturing the replacement bowstrings, steel, etc needed to maintain that level of technology.

But right now you can still have the guy with the crossbow and iron shield, sitting among peasants somewhere near the ass-end of the world, patiently repairing his "stuff" and in fact doing little else, while the rest scrabble for their small bones and whatever.

Just as before. Nothing changes. So what was it all about?

[Solfius]

I'm sure that the system can be refined as we go along.

The important thing is we have taken one more step along the path which leads to where we are going...WORLD DOMINATION .......uh, wait, wrong forum sorry....

What I mean is we're one step closer to a more interesting and life like simulation.

I do hope though that, as you say, repairing will require small amounts of the materials required for and use of the tools used in manufacture

[The Industriallist]

I'd rather see resources required, probably. That way you need real infrastructure going.

As it is, though, this has the major desired effect. To keep a large battery of equipment in top condition, you need labor to maintain it. Much more labor than you can provide by yourself, I imagine, even if it's just for the stock of tools you might want as your own gear.

Someday, somewhere, a cantrian peasant will figure out that rich people needing their labor gives them the leverage to negotiate more than the food plus whatever the employer chooses to give them.

Incidentally, outside my knowledge...but for metal implements, at least, isn't it only reasonable that you can keep repairing them for a long, long time without needing any new resources? Even a much-used sword can last decades or centuries if it's well cared for, I think. Obviously for a bow you do need to get new strings from time to time (IRL).

[Solfius]

it depends what kind of deterioration we are talking about, damage or just making sure it is cared for.

I think a small amount of resources ought to be required (as a compromise to simulate both looking after it and repairing any slight damage occuring to it) and the use of the same tools that made it to repair it. That will keep th infrastructureticking over, as those tools will all require tools to maintain as well, and so forth.

[mortaine]

Well, I don't think any of my previous comments were inflammatory, and I do think Jur's attitude as expressed here was basically "tough sh**." That's not an attitude I like to see when people have tested your code for you and produced bug reports. Everyone knows new code will have bugs, and the people who test it first are going to experience those bugs. That's fine. I wasn't complaining so much as reporting the bugs and expressing that I really hope my items will be returned to me.

Jur's response that "I won't promise anyone will get your stuff back" is, in my opinion, very unappreciative to what those of us who have tested this new feature have done-- not only tested, but also identified a couple of very serious bugs in it. It's like telling your Early Adopters that you don't care what they think about your product, but they're gonna use it anyway.

I appreciate that he's spent time on this, but I would like also for him to acknowledge that just because you spend a lot of time on it doesn't mean it works, and doesn't mean you should have the attitude that the people who use your new code don't matter and should just shut up and go away.

Jur's answer also reveals that he has a completely different idea of what should be "obvious" compared to everyone else who plays the game. This is, in fact, not surprising-- programmers and engineers often don't understand how users think. However, if the users are told to shut up and go away, the programmers will never know. Also, the users will go away, and Cantr will be a lot less fun place to be.

[AoM]

In my case, my char was in the comfort of their own home, working on a clothing project when they noticed a repair icon over their bow. Curious, they wanted to see how long it would take them to repair the bow. Deciding that 32 hours was too much time to take a break from what they we're doing previously, they decided to cancel their project.

That should not equal a broken bow. When canceled, repair shouldn't remove an item permanently from your inventory. I think because this is a bug, that we players are perfectly within our rights to ask for our items back. We shouldn't be calling programmers jerks, but they shouldn't be chastising us for complaining when there's a legitimate problem.

[Nixit]

I think this might be being blown out of proportion a bit... but that's just me.

[Solfius]

probably, my approach is to just ignore the bits which are a little out of place and generally try to defuse any situation that may arise. People get along much more that way.

People rationalising their annoyance is a good start. Helps both sides see each other's points of view.