Sunji's Story

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Yo_Yo
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Postby Yo_Yo » Wed May 04, 2005 6:52 pm

I can't read :oops:
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mortaine
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Postby mortaine » Wed May 04, 2005 6:55 pm

Me neither... [can't read Latin, Greek, Russian, Gaelic, Swahili....]
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Schme
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Postby Schme » Mon May 09, 2005 9:57 pm

I do not know what a parrable is.

I really do not know what your talking about.

The only reason I was making broad hints was because It did not seem to me that people were getting it at all.
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mortaine
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Postby mortaine » Mon May 09, 2005 10:04 pm

Do you know what a fable is? A parable is a lot like a fable.

The most commonly known parables are from the Bible, like the Good Samaritan-- stories about two-dimensional people that are designed to illustrate a moral message.

I think you'd be surprised at how many people "get it," but choose not to comment on it. People do not like to be hit over the head with a moral message when they read something for pleasure. That doesn't mean it can't be morally instructive, but that the message has to be less overtly stated. The characters have to come to moral revelations indirectly-- kind of the way that people do. People never learn a lesson until they screw it up once or twice. You don't know why it's bad to hurt people until you do it and realize the consequences, both short term and long-term.

As a parable, it's fine. A little heavy-handed, but fine-- parables often are heavy with the message and light on the narrative. As a short story, however, see my other comments for suggestions for ways to improve it. Note they're suggestions-- if you're the writer, you get to decide how much to change, if anything. I only made my comments because you specifically said you wanted remarks-- normally, I don't critique others' work unless they ask for it.
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Floyd
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Postby Floyd » Tue May 10, 2005 4:01 pm

schme wrote:I do not know what a parrable is.

I really do not know what your talking about.

The only reason I was making broad hints was because It did not seem to me that people were getting it at all.


How could you not get it? it's just another pointless attack on a system that could work if it was given a fair chance and had the right people behind it...

Edit: my 250th post was defending marxism... sweet
Schme wrote:We all knew it was going to happen sooner or later, and most likely sooner. When you have such a lifestyle, everyone, including yourself, knows that you are likely to die.
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Surly
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Postby Surly » Tue May 10, 2005 4:07 pm

It is hard to say if Marxism would work, in whatever conditions. Marx never actually gave instructions for the implmentation of his ideas, so interpretation isn't true Marxism.

It's just a concept, an idealistic concept.
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Floyd
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Postby Floyd » Tue May 10, 2005 4:18 pm

Okay then... Marxism/Lenninsm would have worked quite nicely if Stalin had stuck to the NEP and introduced the five year plans gradually rather than going all out to achieve his aims and butchering a ton of his own people... then again they probally would have been defeated in WW2 if they hadn't industrialised quickly and... oh dear.. i'm ranting lol
Schme wrote:We all knew it was going to happen sooner or later, and most likely sooner. When you have such a lifestyle, everyone, including yourself, knows that you are likely to die.
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Postby Schme » Sat May 14, 2005 12:28 pm

Oh, I see. In that case, I suppose it is a parable or some such thing.


And perhaps alot of you did understand it to some extent, but if that is the case, it is not the really the people commenting. If it is the case that alot of people understand, or feel they understand, well, as I said before, I welcome there comments with regards to the story.

And there isn't really a moral message. I advocated no thing that I believe in, nor did I mock anything I do not believe in. That's not at all there. It's something rather different.

And as for those who are saying that I'm attacking Marxism, I think you had better rethink that. I have not attacked Marxism.

If you want attacks on Marxism, or any other political ideology, I should think you had better look elsewhere.

Thanks for taking the time to write in, Mortaine.
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mortaine
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Postby mortaine » Sat May 14, 2005 3:01 pm

Schme, it is a fairly common experience for writers to be surprised that someone would get a different message out of their story than they thought they put in. Prevailing literary theory falls into several camps on this:
1) The author's intent is meaningless, only what can be read from the story is relevant.
2) The author's background and state of mind is meaningful, and the author puts in meaning without intending to (i.e.: the author subconsciously wants to present this meaning anyway).
3) The author cannot escape the meaning in the story, because the meaning is buried in his own culture and language-- he can't escape it.

Whether you meant to or not, your piece is critical of systems in which one equalizes power by taking from the rich and giving to the poor, thereby empowering the one who takes and gives, and falling into the trap of becoming the ruling class.

It's easy to see how readers interpret this as an attack on socialism-- essentially, your story criticises socialism as having a fatal flaw. Since the characters are so flat, we have to read them as universals, not as individuals. We aren't permitted the luxury of saying "Sunji has a fatal flaw," because Sunji isn't developed enough to be an individual. Instead, we have to read Sunji as an everyman-- he's all of us, and therefore nobody in particular. He represents the template of a man.

The moral message in your parable is present-- if you don't think you put one there, think again. The fact that you even say "think Red, think East" and similar things means that you *want* your readers to find the message. It's a universal message you're trying to convey-- that's why you use the parable form, after all-- so whether you think of it as morality or not, what you have is, in fact, a moral message.

I know it can be frustrating when you write something and think it's one thing and get back criticism telling you "no, that's not what you have here." I have this happen to me all the danged time, especially when I'm writing comedy (or think I am).

Unfortunately, the responsibility for "getting it" does not lie with the reader. It lies with the writer, and whatever "it" is, it must be conveyed entirely through the story-- no explanation, because in a typical medium, you don't get to explain yourself. Either the reader reads it and understands and enjoys it, or they don't and they stop reading.

I go with the rule of the back-cover blurb in critique: if someone reads my work and I have to explain the story in more space than would be on the back cover of a paperback novel or the tagline in a magazine's table of contents (for short stories), then I haven't done my job and need to look at what they've said for critique and decide where the communication is faltering-- at what point did I present information in a way that the reader could interpret it incorrectly? (this has happened to me in the past a lot, from details as serious as someone interpreting my forty year old protagonist to be a teenager based on one phrase, to thinking she was in pants instead of a skirt). It's all right to have multiple-interpretations, but as a writer, you have to decide which interpretation is the one you want to stress and reinforce in the story.

Also, I recommend reading Life of Pi, which is a great example of a novel that's a story, not a parable, but which still conveys a fairly meaty message without hitting the reader over the head with it.
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Schme
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Postby Schme » Sun May 15, 2005 7:17 pm

Those we're only hints as to what I was trying to tell about.

However, if I think about it now, it's rather hard to understand, and I suppose easily misinterpreted.

Anyhow, I don't think there's much I can do.


Interesting feedback though.
"One death is a tragedy, a million is just statistics."

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Floyd
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Postby Floyd » Sun May 15, 2005 10:19 pm

Istill cant see how this could be in anyways misinterpreted... specially after those "look east, think red" comments... i mean, thats Blatently about Communsim, and this story is obviously about how Human greed gets in the way of that particular system ever working.... isn't it? :?
Schme wrote:We all knew it was going to happen sooner or later, and most likely sooner. When you have such a lifestyle, everyone, including yourself, knows that you are likely to die.
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kinvoya
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Postby kinvoya » Sun May 15, 2005 10:57 pm

I'm really curious to know what, exactly, you intended the story to be about, schme. I think most people have read it at this point so won't you tell us, please?
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Schme
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Postby Schme » Mon May 16, 2005 9:11 pm

I can't say that I understand your question.

How do you mean?
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kinvoya
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Postby kinvoya » Mon May 16, 2005 9:35 pm

However, if I think about it now, it's rather hard to understand, and I suppose easily misinterpreted.

It was my impression that you don't think that people understand what you we're trying to convey with the story. That, if there is a moral to it, the feedback from readers shows that they misunderstood what that moral is.

I was hoping you would explain what you intended for people to get out of the story or what it represents to you.
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Postby Schme » Mon May 16, 2005 10:10 pm

Oh, I see.
"One death is a tragedy, a million is just statistics."

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