skill poll

[Nixit]

I vote twice for what Lumin said. It's so simple and it solves many problems plus it makes sense. Everybody starts at a low skill base and:

1) Chars can get better at what they do a lot of. Practice = skill

2) Every char can have a randomized speed at which they can improve = skill

3) Every char can have a randomized maximum level they can reach = skill

This way chars can actually figure out if they are good at something they want to do pretty quickly. Plus they can still do it and get at least somewhat better at it even if they aren't as skilled (speed of learning + level of achievement) as other chars although they might also decide to try to find something else they can do better. It seems to me this is the purpose of skills unless I'm misunderstanding.

Plus, with the inheritance it makes sense that in a town of skillful weavers newspawns would tend to have good weaving skills.

It's also possble that this is close to what we have now but our chars just can't tell. Would it be so terrible if the chars got little private messages once in a while like: You see your weaving skill improving? You are now an above average novice weaver. I dunno. I know everybody will scream leveling but since our chars don't have real sensory feedback we have to have some way of perceiving improvement.

NO!!!!!

This is why I play this game, there are no levels! This would just make it into a more hack n' slash type game. I mentioned this earlier, but apparently people overlooked it. We will have people just saying stuff like, "Yes! I just got better at weaving!" And then they will think to themself, "Yes! Only five more weaving projects and I will be even better!"

No. This can't and shouldn't happen.


Now, I can see something where it shows how good you are, but I don't really like direct signs of progression. Improvement is a gradual thing, it doesn't come in chunks and levels.

[Yo_Yo]

Practice makes perfect. I think we should be able to see our skills and whatnot. Maybe not see how many weaving projects we need to do to gain more exp, but be able to see where we are at.

And i'd love to have this be a more hack-n-slash game. I've wanted to kill some of you for so long.

[Lumin]

How many people, at age five, knew they'd someday become a professional baseball player, or the next president?

How many people, the first day of their lives, are already magically good at playing basketball or bad at public speaking? Yet that's what the skill system dictates.

[Nixit]

And about the twenties thing, I think that it's there just so people don't get the impression that they are babies... all it means is that they are fully developed physically.

[swymir]

How many people, the first day of their lives, are already magically good at playing basketball or bad at public speaking? Yet that's what the skill system dictates.

Well I must say it is more common than you think. Althought the actual proof is hard to aquire since how many babies are in the condition to play basketball after being violently squazed from the womb.

Anyway there is such thing as natural talent. I know politically correct people like to think that everyone is equal, but the truth is we aren't get used to it. There is always gping to be someone stronger than you so quit bitching.

I think this rule applies to Cantr as well as to real life.

[formerly known as hf]

No - no direct skill disply - I'd hate that - it'd remind me of so many other RP web games - Cantr is so distinct - it should stay that way...

But I do think that there should be some indication of what skills there are - but I like the way that seems to be gradually being discovered by the players - so maybe just a few more hints from the powers that be whe we're on the right track?

[Lumin]

Anyway there is such thing as natural talent. I know politically correct people like to think that everyone is equal, but the truth is we aren't get used to it.

Well, I did address natural talent in one of my earlier posts. Sure, a person can be born naturally athletic, or with good hand-eye coordination or language skills, but there's still a learning process involved before they can effectively do something like, say, hunting or knitting.

There is always gping to be someone stronger than you so quit bitching.

This is the exact attitude I was getting sick of earlier. It really doesn't help a discussion when you just brush off the people who disagree with you by saying they're "bitching" or imply that all they care about is being the strongest.

I always assumed that what mattered here is roleplay. And it seems like more and more the importance of roleplay is being lessened to make room for inflexible, hard-coded "features" that at best don't effect anything much and at worst are broken, restrictive, completely illogical, or all of the above.

It just really bothers me to see how many of you are willing to embrace something seems to go against the spirit of the game. If skills and the like are the path we're headed down, than somebody should really change the new player page and all the emphasis on "No ___ will be coded" because it's misleading to new players.

If I want to play a game with skills and stats, then there are plenty of RPGs out there. If I want to play a society simulator and social experiment where every character is formed by their surroundings and experiences, without a bunch of dice or random numbers getting in the way, the only place I've found to go is Cantr. But lately it seems like those in charge are planning to change all that.

Sure, it's their game and they can do whatever they want to it, but I have to say it'll be a shame if the game one day loses the unique element that attracted me to it in the first place; once that's gone the whole thing is more like a really slow, boring MUD than anything else, and I'd probably be better off roleplaying in a forum or chatroom somewhere.

[The Industriallist]

Anyway there is such thing as natural talent. I know politically correct people like to think that everyone is equal, but the truth is we aren't get used to it.

Well, I did address natural talent in one of my earlier posts. Sure, a person can be born naturally athletic, or with good hand-eye coordination or language skills, but there's still a learning process involved before they can effectively do something like, say, hunting or knitting.

Well, allegedly there is an improvement component to skills which would allow the desperately determined hunter who's just not cut out for it to become competant some day...though he really ought to get it into his head that that's not what he's good at in most cases.

No one seems to be certain that this actually is functioning...we have some people who claim to have observed marginal improvements, and some who report no improvements despite doing everything concievable to obtain them.

I always assumed that what mattered here is roleplay. And it seems like more and more the importance of roleplay is being lessened to make room for inflexible, hard-coded "features" that at best don't effect anything much and at worst are broken, restrictive, completely illogical, or all of the above.

Well, that wouldn't make much of a simulator, would it? The "hard-coded 'features'" of the game engine are what differentiates cantr from a freeform play-by-post.

I'm not trying to diminish the importance of roleplay (much). I just have to point out that without both roleplay and a good (rigid) game engine, cantr wouldn't work.

It just really bothers me to see how many of you are willing to embrace something seems to go against the spirit of the game. If skills and the like are the path we're headed down, than somebody should really change the new player page and all the emphasis on "No ___ will be coded" because it's misleading to new players.

All the things it said won't be coded haven't been coded. I admit some of the 'you can be anything' stuff on the front page is getting hazier since you may be totally unable to fight, but none of the things explicitly mentioned are impossible with rock-bottom skills, so far as I can tell.

And of course my understanding is that they're still not quite working right with regard to improvement.

If I want to play a game with skills and stats, then there are plenty of RPGs out there. If I want to play a society simulator and social experiment where every character is formed by their surroundings and experiences, without a bunch of dice or random numbers getting in the way, the only place I've found to go is Cantr. But lately it seems like those in charge are planning to change all that.

You could consider that their innate talants are part of their "surroundings and experiences". That's what all the invisible dice and such are for, or the visible ones in other games for that matter...to simulate the world the characters live in. Though it would truely be nice if they weren't bounded forever to their initial gifts...


>Sociologist:

You need to be more forgiving of discontinuity effects. Yes, everyone before the change, all those people in their 60s and 50s and so on, suddenly has a major discontinuity in what they can do. This has happened before, will happen again, and is a very bad thing. But in a good cause, which I hold installing a properly functioning skill system would be, it's worthwhile and not worth complaining about.

Of course, not long ago I was complaining about that kind of discontinuity. Hopefully you can understand how this doesn't contradict that.

[The Sociologist]

Of course, not long ago I was complaining about that kind of discontinuity. Hopefully you can understand how this doesn't contradict that.

No.

[The Industriallist]

Of course, not long ago I was complaining about that kind of discontinuity. Hopefully you can understand how this doesn't contradict that.

No.

Fine then.

It's different because this dislocation is a natural consequence of a major change that I consider a clear step forward for the game (once it gets debugged). The other case was, as I explicitly, repeatedly pointed out, a discontinuity to allow a fairly petty economic refinement of questionable value.

Obviously if you consider cheaper carving knives to be as big an improvement in the game as a skill system should be, this line of arguement can't work for you.

[Lumin]

I guess when I joined I sort of assumed that aside from the seperate physical world of resources and machines, etc. the only things that would be directly coded into your character were be the need to eat and giving and receiving damage, with restrictions on the last two to keep them from having an unbalancing effect. The rest would be handled by the players.

The two requirements imposed by the game are that characters need to eat, and that death is final and permanent

And then along came tiredness, the sneezing sickness, deterioration, and now skills, with thirst, drunkeness, and dirtiness in the works...

I do think that item rot has promise if it's ever balanced properly, and though I'll never be thrilled with it I can live with the idea of tiredness now that it's not so crippling anymore, but I really don't like the way the general trend now seems to be to add more and more restrictions and rules, when there was nothing actually wrong with the way things were before. What do things like skills really accomplish? What problems do they fix? Was the game really that unbalanced without them?

I guess I would just prefer to see a more "hands off" approach where societies and characters develop naturally in as stable a world as possible.

[Solfius]

Most of the work done by programming isn't to do with balancing.

Although, I believe tiredness was to stop 3 men massacres, or actions of that type.

Half the things people complain about, skills being the most obvious one at the moment, the sickness Lumin brought up, as far as I know don't even exist. Who actually said skills had been implemented? I assume someone did, but I can't remember for the life of me.

[The Industriallist]

Yes, that came down from on high I'm pretty sure...also, skills are easily observed. The Sociologist is probably our expert on that...characters do consistant damage to animals (and to people, I believe) with a given weapon...but each person does a different consistant damage. This is an undeniable fact...I have one who hunts for ~60 against lions with a crossbow...none of my others do close to that to any animal.

The sickness also unquestionably exists. I've seen it more than once...one of my characters sees it happening right now.

I guess I would just prefer to see a more "hands off" approach where societies and characters develop naturally in as stable a world as possible.

I would agree entirely, but I'd rather see cantr as a more sophisticated product before it's allowed to run that way. There are some things that are badly flawed and could very much use fixing. Not all of them are results of new features.

For instance, our economics really are doomed without item degredation, and there are a lot of things that would improve sea travel and related activities.

Some day I hope we see a stable cantr, though.

[kinvoya]

I believe tiredness was to stop 3 men massacres, or actions of that type.

How ironic that it ended up killing more chars than the pirates ever could have.

If there are to be meaningul skills they have to be observed in some way. Cantrians only have one actual sense, which is sight (the words they hear are actually a form of sight). We are aware of hunting and fighting skills because we have a somewhat reliable feedback mechanism. For any other skill which may or may not exist we have only the sketchiest of evidence.

Maybe I'm not so feaked out over the dreaded "leveling" because I haven't played any of those eight million other games which use it. As with all things Cantrian, it would only be as evil as the players choose to make it. There are already players who are more or less leveling by eliminating chars with poor hunting and fighting skills and attempting to improve their skills with weapons through lots of practice.

If someone wants to be obsessed with this stuff they will find a way to do it. Meanwhile, if skills are intended to add dimension and realism to the game then we need some sort of way for our chars to know if they are actually doing something well or poorly that doesn't involve graphs, pie charts, Excell sheets and endless hours of monitoring by the players.

[formerly known as hf]

Excell sheets

I use OpenOffice