Carving Knife

[Solfius]

It can be fustrating to see things changed seemingly randomly, regardless of whether this is the case or not.

Which is why I prefer basing things on RL where ever possible, as it provides an easy standard to follow, everything is already balanced, and if a mistake is made everyone can agree on it being changed to fit in unlike perhaps is personal judgement is being used

[kinvoya]

Whenever something disasterous happens or something that upsets the status quo, I like to find some rl analogy for it. This helps me feel less like it's something that is beyond what might actually happen in a society or world.

For instance when tiredness was such a problem and players were quitting and so many chars were dropping dead I thought of it like the Black Plague in Europe where 1/4 or so of the population died. But it ultimately revitalized and change society by creating opportunities for the very poor because they were needed in the work force and the rich were forced to pay them a competative wage which ultimately created the first middle-class economic class. The outcome of all the deaths in Cantr was the same in some ways because chars who had nothing were able to pick-up valuable tools, resources and keys when the dead dropped them. Also towns full of empty buildings provided homes, businesses and safe storage for very young people who could then spend their time working on other things.

Anyway, the changes talked about in this thread and the problems they cause for some people while benefiting others reminds me of when somebody invents a new drug or something which causes the stock of another product to plummet and the business might go under altogether. You never know what will happen in life and every investment of time and resources is a risk. For me, it's these kind of events that keep Cantr interesting.

[Anthony Roberts]

Kinvoya, you have explained my point PERFECTLY.

Things 'happen', seriously, and instead of leaving something in the game as it is, it must be balanced. There are side effects of such, you just have to go with it.

Seriously, I'm sorry that it wasn't balanced in the first place, but the fact that they're changing isn't the matter. Sooner or later, someone would have noticed (As was done), and it would have been changed then, if not by me, by someone else, and the same situation would entail. There's nothing that can be done, it's the way of life.

[The Industriallist]

So, explaining away OOC events as IC events makes no sense at all. No one invented a new kind of carving knife anywhere, let alone everywhere.

Uphevals happen. They happen IRL because of the behavior of people IRL. Not as a result of some god suddenly turning the world inside out. In cantr, it seems to me that we have more artifical upheavals than natural ones...which indicates that the simulation is being poisoned by too much sourceless chaos.

>Kinvoya
If it's events outside cantr that keep cantr interesting, something's wrong with cantr. The cantr world ought to be interesting on it's own, not just for how it reacts when you turn it upside down and shake it.

[Lumin]

With any game that's constantly being added too (though whether all those additions are "improvements" or really not depends on the situation and the person you're asking) you're going to run into a lot of outside disruptions that significantly effect the game in an IC way.

I see Cantr as still being in a sort of beta stage, though that presupposes that at some point it's going to move out of the beta stage when it's all balanced and polished and whatnot. Still, changes are to be expected, even enormous, earthshattering ones, and that just comes with the territory.

But I agree that too many major shakeups can spoil the "purity" of the game, at least in the sense that this is supposed to be a society simulator, and it's hard to let a society develop naturally when the laws of physics or physiology or whatever gets turned on their head once a month.

Then again, by this point things have been shook up so much and so often that the Cantr we have now was formed largely around OOC events; I just don't think there's any getting around that, short of a complete wipe after the desired major features have been added and tested and no more drastic changes are expected. (Which I could accept as being necessary for the long run, though I don't know how many others feel the same way...)

[formerly known as hf]

I see Cantr as still being in a sort of beta stage

It's not really beta - more like in constant state of growth - Cantr is one of the most complicated RP games available on the net (at least browser-based) and it would be impossible to have built it from the ground up to how it is - and there'll be many more changes yet - I hope...

[west]

The front page admits that this is a game in constant change, you agreed to it when you signed up for this game.

I've liked some of the changes, and disliked others, but I keep playing because I find it genuinely fascinating how cultures develop in cantr, given their situations and the oft-changing game mechanics.

My (once) most important character in game terms is now nothing more than a footnote in history, but I still play the game and I keep him around long after his usefulness as an agent of power has gone, because I want from an OOC perspective to see what develops.

Cantr is fun, change is good, and individual sob stories are a pity but not what the game is about.

[formerly known as hf]

I keep playing because I find it genuinely fascinating how cultures develop in cantr, given their situations and the oft-changing game mechanics.

That's one of the main reasons Cantr is the only online game I've ever stuck to - it's fascinating to see the wider picture of cultures and societies develop...

[The Industriallist]

The front page admits that this is a game in constant change, you agreed to it when you signed up for this game.

Yes, I did. I didn't agree not to talk about it, however.

I've liked some of the changes, and disliked others, but I keep playing because I find it genuinely fascinating how cultures develop in cantr, given their situations and the oft-changing game mechanics.

I keep playing because I find it fascinating despite the way constant distortions mangle development. And I've liked most changes...

I don't think we don't need changes, or anything of the kind. It's just that petty non-feature changes like this knife thing...they may be worth the damage, but lately it doesn't seem as if there's any inertia. 2 posts, and suddenly we wind up with a whole different world.

Cantr is fun, change is good, and individual sob stories are a pity but not what the game is about.

I didn't even mention a sob story...it's true one of my characters spent far too much on a carving knife a while back...but you didn't know that

I don't really care about the characters that get hurt (or helped) by a change, even if some of them are mine. I do care about the entire world order being shaken up from the outside essentially on a whim...several times a week.

I agree that cantr is fun. If I didn't, I wouldn't be bothering to post here. I think it would be more fun if it were only deformed for significant, thought-out reasons, is all.

[kinvoya]

Uphevals happen. They happen IRL because of the behavior of people IRL. Not as a result of some god suddenly turning the world inside out.

I'm not sure which planet you live on, Industrialist, but on Earth there are earthquakes, tsunamis, hurricanes, draughts, floods, etc., etc., etc. People loose everything, EVERYTHING! and then they have to stand up and carry on.

I have come to think of the traumatic changes as Acts of Programming Gods.

[formerly known as hf]

I think it's kinda fun to see how Cantrians RP their way through changes...

[Anthony Roberts]

Just because I had stated that I didn't think about ONE thing, doesn't mean I didn't think about OTHER things that would affect the game.

I'm not allowed to make a change based on a "whim". That's what causes the game to fall into a black hole of... well... crap or something. I made an educated guess, based on the knowledge of Cantr that I have. I can't look into the future, but I can predict it as best I can with what has happened in the past.

And the fact that several changes have been made just recently, that's merely coincidence. They all probably would have happened, sooner or later. Just as soon as they were pointed out, that is.

As well, I care if Cantr is shaken up too. Hello? I play the game as well! I don't sit back and watch, you know. If I screw something up, if effects MY charcters as well, and MY enjoyment of the game. I'm not going to sacrifice that.

Just pretend that one day, magical faries all came around and gave Cantarians the knowledge to make Propane and Carving Knives better. Horray! Now we can all get some sleep, and stop whining over this. I could understand if the changes caused the game to roll over and die, but this is not the case, these two situations are quite small in comparison to other additions to the game.

Go complain about those >.>

Really.

[The Sociologist]

I think the one thing this thread does do is demonstrate just how tough a job Anthony and the others have.

I think Anthony's changes were great on this occasion, but obviously I'm biased by the experiences of my charries in-game. And The Industriallist is in effect freely admitting that he's upset because one of his charries did make a carving knife. So objectivity is hard to establish!

The fault here lies with the person who set up the carving knife originally. They probably did it that way because carving knives were used to make crossbows, and so they felt added difficulty was needed, or something. But the problem is that the result is counter-intuitive and therefore can't last.

To point at a different thread, we have the same problem now arising with Bronze. The Resources staff are adding materials for the sake of "difficulty" but the result is far from intuitive or logical...or even rational. So, therefore, Sociologist guarantees that it won't last.

They should save us all a lot of pain.

[The Industriallist]

I think Anthony's changes were great on this occasion, but obviously I'm biased by the experiences of my charries in-game. And The Industriallist is in effect freely admitting that he's upset because one of his charries did make a carving knife. So objectivity is hard to establish!

No, I'm upset because of the piling on of major economic changes without clear purposes. Particularly since two in less than a week was a bad trend.

This doesn't actually effect any of my characters much, even that one with the knife...if I thought I weren't being objective, I wouldn't have given you the evidence.

If this is a coincidence rather than a trend, it doesn't really matter.

[Anthony Roberts]

As stated...

And the fact that several changes have been made just recently, that's merely coincidence. They all probably would have happened, sooner or later. Just as soon as they were pointed out, that is.

As for Bronze with added materials for difficulty, at the moment, it seems reasonable. We are very much unable to predict wether Bronze will be superiour or inferiour to its Steel counterpart that most Bronze tools and weapons will help to simulate, not until it's in the game itself and players actually start using it.

Sure, we have numbers and figures, but numbers and figures do not help when it comes to players/characters mindsets and ambitions. If Bronze ends up being unbalanced, then chances are, there may be change regarding that as well. However, such changes would not occour until Bronze has been adapted into the Cantr society, so that a fair number of characters have had experience and opinions on the new material.

This is something we can not simulate within a test world, it is something that will need in game application. It's the risk that is taken for a new addition, but it surely isn't being added just for the sake of "something new". As stated in the actual Bronze thread, there are reasons as to its addition.

I'm not allowed to make a change based on a "whim".

All of Resources needs to follow such an example. Whim's get us in trouble, and gets the game in trouble as well. Bronze isn't being added as a whim, either. It's being added due to a calculation, one that signifies that it is a requirement due to several variables. (Lack of building materials, new materials needed for newer areas, variable materials for similiar objects, something easier to construct to help eliminate the jump between stone and iron, etc etc.)

Considdering, Bronze doesn't belong in this thread...