Bronze Age...Not.

[west]

West, since when do you have a say in Resource decisions?

Although he's right: phosphorus stays.

[rklenseth]

Since I felt like it.

[Appleide]

From American Bronze's website; http://www.americanbronze.com/WhatsBronze.htm

In metallurgy bronze is an alloy of copper, tin, zinc, phosphorus, and sometimes small amounts of other elements. Bronzes are harder than brasses. Most are produced by melting the copper and adding the desired amounts of tin, zinc, and other substances. The properties of the alloy depend on the proportions of its components.

So phosphorus stays. My final decision.

That's only one source though.... this other website says phosphorus bronze is only one of tin bronze's variations....

http://www.awfraser.co.nz/bronze_101.htm

Traditionally, "bronze" was a copper alloy which contained tin (not exceeding 10%). Tin increases hardness, making bronze more resistant to wear than is copper and bronzes with 10 percent or more tin are harder, stronger, and more resistant to corrosion than brass. They have been used for bearings, electrical hardware, springs, and clips.

Variations of Tin Bronze
Phosphor bronze contains a small amount of phosphorus. Phosphorus further increases the hardness and wear resistance of bronze. In addition, it allows molten bronze to flow better, which enhances its casting quality.

Leaded bronze has lead, usually small amounts, mixed in to act as a lubricant. Such bronze is often used to make machine parts, such as bearings, that must endure a lot of sliding action against other parts.

Bell bronze is very hard and provides a special tone to bells that no other alloy can match. It is one fifth to one fourth tin.

Nickel bronze, which adds nickel to the alloy, is hard and resistant to wear. It is used to make gears and machinery bearings.

Silicon bronze has small amounts of silicon, which makes it grow stronger when it is worked, such as by rolling. It is also particularly resistant to corrosion and is used in boilers, pumps, water wheels, parts for ships, and electrical parts.

Anyways, I don't really mind if you really want to make bronze need phosphorus...

[rklenseth]

There are different alloys but the one we want is the one that is used for metallury which is the what bronze made with phosphorus is made for.

Other alloys are used for different things that perhaps we will use later but not now.

[formerly known as hf]

From American Bronze's website; http://www.americanbronze.com/WhatsBronze.htm

From exactly the same website:

but believe that bronze may have first been made accidentally when rocks rich in ores of copper and tin were used to build campfire rings

Where's the phosphorus there?

An alloy described in an 11th-century Greek manuscript in the library of St. Mark's, Venice, cites a proportion of one pound copper to two ounces of tin (8 to 1)

Phosphorous?

Some modern bronzes contain no tin at all, substituting other metals such as aluminum, manganese, and even zinc.

i.e: Only modern methods use anything but just copper and tin...

From the University of Carolina

The primary components of the bronze used by Greek and Roman craftsmen to make statues are copper, tin, and lead.

no phosphorous...

Pliny's formulae for bronze. He states:

"The composition of bronze for statues, as well as for sheets of metal, is as follows: the ore is melted and to the melt is added a third part of copper scrap-that is, used, second-hand copper. This scrap contains an intrinsic, seasoned brightness, since it has been subdued by friction and tamed by use. Tin is also alloyed with it, in the proportion of one part of tin to eight of copper.

"Then there is the bronze referred to as 'suitable for moulds'; this is very delicate because a tenth part of lead and a twentieth part of silver-lead is added; it is the best way to impart the colour called Grecian...."

And, although I'm a human geographer, I still have access to all kinds of weird and wonderful academic journals... So
In Chemical and structural properties of ancient metallic artefacts: multitechnique approach to study of early bronzes by G. Spoto, E. Ciliberto et al. in British Corrosion Journal 2000 Vol. 35 No. 1 pages 43-47

Analysis by SEM/EDX showed that all of the artefacts
were made of a-bronze with a tin content varying between
5 and 11 wt-%. Small amounts of iron (<1 wt-%) and
sulphur (<1 wt-%) were also detected. Several areas were
found to contain a/d and a/e eutectoid phases in the
intradendritic zones.

and

The EDX analysis of inclusions showed
the presence of copper and sulphur, with iron and lead
sometimes present alongside copper. In a few objects,
nodules and unalloyed copper were present in regions
where the d-phase was observed. Copper rich sulphide
inclusions associated with copper oxide were detected in
other findings. The presence at the same time of a tin rich
phase in metallic copper revealed a poorly blended alloy.

In fact, even a search for phosphorus reveals nothing...

Phosphorous WAS NOT USED during the bronze age, although may well now be part of a modern way of making bronze

[The Sociologist]

"German alchemist Hennig Brand discovered phosphorous in 1669 when he strongly heated the residue left by the evaporation of urine."

It is quite clear, therefore, what Resources needs to add to the game.

Seriously though, as I said before, phosphor-bronze has nothing to do with any genuine historical weapons from the bronze age. It should be very obvious by now what the staff are doing and why they are doing it, so we just ignore bronze and carry on. Wasted opportunity for a low-tech alternative to steel, in my opinion.

[Anthony Roberts]

No, it's because Cantr doesn't fit in any specific timeframe. We don't have to make "bronze age bronze". We can make any age bronze. Or any type bronze. Or imaginary bronze.

Shh, you! We're trying to do something for the game, and although your opinions and suggestions are greatly appreciated (No, seriously, I'm not joking, they truely are - and this isn't sarcasm, either.), 'west' has his mind set, and not even -I- can change it. So I'll just back him up on this one.

[Nick]

No, it's because Cantr doesn't fit in any specific timeframe. We don't have to make "bronze age bronze". We can make any age bronze. Or any type bronze. Or imaginary bronze.

Shh, you! We're trying to do something for the game, and although your opinions and suggestions are greatly appreciated (No, seriously, I'm not joking, they truely are - and this isn't sarcasm, either.), 'west' has his mind set, and not even -I- can change it. So I'll just back him up on this one.

If you guys haven't added phosphorous yet, why are you being so stubborn in using it?
Not like it's too late or anything...

[kinvoya]

Is bronze going to be like the "medicine" that no one can make even though chars also can't heal themselves? In other words is the magic ingredient going to be on some far away island that will take a thousand Cantr years before anyone discovers it and hauls a tiny bit back to the old lands where only a few lucky (rich) people will have accesses to it?

[Anthony Roberts]

As I stated. Bronze tools will be a substitute for Steel tools, as you can see. It's just like a bone needle substituting a steel needle. How many steel needles do you see, anymore? Not many. It's all bone, why? Because it's easy to get.

We don't want that with Bronze. We want it to be a challenge, but not OVERLY hard.

[Nixit]

But phosphorus won't just be on unpopulated islands right?

[Anthony Roberts]

We're hoping not, because then it would make bronze implementation pointless.

The same goes for medicine. The materials exist on new lands, but not existing ones, but for sure, we want to get that on current lands!

[Solfius]

I always thought that bronze was the easy alternative to steel, that's why it was discovered first.

I was under the impression that bronze tools were not added because until deterioration there would be no diferrence between steel and bronze. Surely now we have deterioration we can start to add in alternatives which are easier to make, but decay faster?

Rather than making things harder just because you want them to be used?

[Appleide]

Why can't you just use Tin and Copper and smelt them together to make bronze? arrgh! What's your obsession with phosphorus? is it ThaT addictive? Why not just make it a little harder tp find tin? arrrr!


I changed my mind... Now I do mind using phophorus, because I bet you it would either only be found on unpopulated islands or need some really complex chemical reactions/burning/processes to get it.

only tin+ only copper = still bronze, right?

[Anthony Roberts]

Hmm, allow me to try this once more.

This is Cantr. Cantr follows its own path. Bronze does NOT have to reflect Bronze in real life, with any way, shape, or form. It only reflects real life so that it makes sense to us, the players.

This is going back to the discussion, that we could name all resources, objects, and whatever, gibberish words just so that they don't reflect real life. Ie: Potatoes become "Guatrafin" or something. We'd all have no idea what the hell it's supposed to be, so how could we say "This Guatrafin looks brown, round, and edible!" - We couldn't (Unless there were descriptions, but let's not go there! )

If Bronze does or does not need phosphorus isn't the matter at hand. The fact is, Steel is hard to acquire. We're making tools that will be as efficient as these steel tools (Untill tool efficiency can be defined, anyway). However, we can not make it easy.

Think about it. If a Sabre requires Steel, then all of a sudden, we give you a Sabre made of Bronze, that does the SAME damage, why the hell would we make Bronze EASY to get? All of a sudden, you'll see all these Bronze Sabres cropping up, unbalancing the game terribly! We can't make acquiring Bronze EASY, nor can we make it HARD, due to the fact that it's less efficient than Steel (And will simulate such when that is implemented). Therefore, the addition of a new resource for its creation boosts the difficulty of creating Bronze.

And on ANOTHER note. It is completly unknown to me if phosphorus will be going on only new lands, or existing lands as well. I'm HOPING for existing ones, and I'm sure we'll fight for that. However, if it goes on new lands only, you STILL have no reason to complain. Why? Chances are, on those new islands, Steel will be impossible to make (Exactly how on existing islands, Bronze would be impossible. Unless there were sea trade, of course) - So, this would help to give some form of VARIETY to the game.

Although I stated earlier that Cantr doesn't need to reflect Real Life, I'm going to use Real Life for an example. When the human race evolved, BEFORE the Mayflower went from Europe to the North America, what technological stage was North American Natives at? Stone Age, practically. Europe had steam boats, cannons, musketeers, whatever. North America had axes, primitive swords, etc. By only allowing Bronze in one area, and only Steel in another, it simulates the fact that the world isn't always advancing at the same time, which is something that has been very much lacking in Cantr.

Surely, you can demand that Bronze sucks and should be removed, but honestly, if phosphorus is placed on only new lands, or existing lands as well, Bronze is only giving BENIFITS to Cantr. Maybe not to your characters, but to Cantr.

So there. End of discussion. If you want to continue debating, please do, but I'm not going to feed you monsters anymore.