The devaluation of propane...(moved to GD from GS)

[Surly]

A fair point, Yo Yo... but one too rooted in RL, and one that does not address the implications purely from a Cantr perspective.

I understand your point, but mine is more about the devaluation and the pointlessness of a processed resource which is LESS EFFICIENT and MORE EXPENSIVE than the alternatives. Don't make it then, you may say, but my character has a backstock of it, and produced much under the (at the time correct) assumption that it was more work because it was more efficient.

[The Sociologist]

I could see why they would lower the value of propane. unlike coal, which burns for a long time, propane simply burns for as long as you supply it. Plus since propane is a gas, the fire doesn't have the potential to burn at even hotter degrees.

Simply put, the coals get hotter then the propane, thus making it easier for the coal to burn out the impurities in the iron.

We are talking about issues of game balance here. But if you want to talk real life, then coal has never been used in the production of iron.

[Yo_Yo]

Well I don't know that well about the real life processes. I know about the heating temperatures because I like to cook out.

And all my post was is a guess at why it happened.

[The Sociologist]

And all my post was is a guess at why it happened.

Yeah, well in modern coal power stations--as I uderstand it--they grind up the coal to a powder and then blast it into the ovens where it burns rather more like a gas would in any case, producing much higher temperatures.

And for iron production, they've always used coke. I think I've seen something about coke in the game somewhere, but I've never used it. Logically, if gas has to go through a whole process to produce propane, then coal should go through a similar process to produce coke. Prior to coke, charcoal was used throughout most of history to produce iron.

[rklenseth]

Well that's fine. Move the topic to GD... I don't care.

But can somebody give me an answer!

I'm not sure if the person you are looking for is still around. I think it was Solfius that made those changes so long ago so if he still knows then maybe he'll answer.

Perhaps Anthony, Wim, or TJ might know. They were or are the chairpersons of the department.

Sorry, if I had the answers and they wouldn't hurt the game at all I'd give them.

[The Industriallist]

So, to throw extra RL metalurgy on...
You need something that approximates elemental carbon to act as a recucing agent when you smelt iron. Charcoal is good for this, as is coke (some kind of refined coal...). Regular coal could be used...but the iron would be useless, because coal contains significant amounts of sulfur, which leads to brittle iron.

I don't believe you could smelt using propane as the carbon source.

You probably also need an extra source of heat, which could be coal, propane, more coke, charcoal, or anything that burns hot.

Game balance issues, though...propane doesn't actually have to be better than other fuels, as long as it's much lighter for what it does (as it used to be). If those are both gone, it's been reduced to an ornamental resource...

[Solfius]

I made the changes to iron refining, however did not implement propane.

As Industriallist mention, it is chemically impossible to refine iron using propane as it has no carbon to produce the reduction required to remove the extra oxygen molecules from the ore.

Therefore, propane shouldn't produce any iron at all

However, I don't know anything about the orignal values, and why they might have changed. Sorry

[Surly]

Game balance issues, though...propane doesn't actually have to be better than other fuels, as long as it's much lighter for what it does (as it used to be). If those are both gone, it's been reduced to an ornamental resource...

I would dispute that. Propane is worthless as it is more expensive to make, and less efficient. I can accept that maybe the RD decided to change it... but all it has done is just plain screw me over. I do feel it is harsh to produce a certain amount of a resource only to then have a change in Cantr render all that time a waste.

If you are going to do this to propane, you may as well remove it. Considering the investment of resources (300g of iron in the damn purifier), there is no advantage to it. Maybe if it didn't require coal to produce, it would be a viable alternative (like charcoal, which doesn't require coal).

As it is, if you have coal, it makes more economic sense to just use it. I have more statistics if you need more evidence.

Therefore, propane shouldn't produce any iron at all

I'm not all that bothered about real life in this instance. My question is about the devaluation of propane without any kind of compensation to those who invested time and valuable resources only to find themselves worse of than is they had just done it the conventional way.

I object to the fact that the goalposts have been moved...

Should I email Jos? or Resources? Which is more likely to find someone with the answer? I know Jos prefers email to pm.

[Nick]

I agree with you, TSC...

But I am afraid it looks like you're getting entangled in the Cantrian beurocracy.

[Solfius]

I'd agree, no one seems to know who made the change.

Also, my point was propane shouldn't have been used for iron refining in the first place, avoiding this, as I recall that the amount of iron produced in the process is based upon the actual percentages of hematite/ore/iron etc in RL. If RL amounts had been stuck to, then there should have been no need to adjust the results

[The Sociologist]

I object to the fact that the goalposts have been moved...

But I am afraid it looks like you're getting entangled in the Cantrian beurocracy.

I'd agree, no one seems to know who made the change.

I am, as I posted before, becoming seriously concerned by issues such as this. Is any control at all been exercised over all these departments? I mean neutral, objective control in the interests of game balance.

Can we have an explanation, please?

Also, can someone give us an indication of when this change was made as well as by whom?

(Edited to correct quote attribution. Thanks.)

[Solfius]

it was made in the last 12 months, because that's when I left the staff.

There are automated reports (or used to be) or all changes to the resources databases, I don't know if those are kept in logs or are just emails though.

There is a system where the chairs liase with the GAC or whatever it's called.

Other than that I can't say any more, but this is a game, and I absolutely hate commitees with a passion, and that goes for independant auditing bodies as well.

An aside: you've mis-quoted Nick saying he agreed no one knew about the changes (w/ever) - I said that, just a mistake in the tags I'd imagine but potentially confusing

[Just A Bill]

Making iron with propane might still be efficient in areas where coal is available but hard to get and gas is near the other resources needed. I know of at least one town where this is the case.

If it requires a long trip to get coal, you would want to get as much iron as you could from every gram of coal. This apparently doesn't apply in your situation, but to say gas should be removed from the game just because it is not useful in your situation.

As you noted in your earlier comments, the calculations you used did not factor travel costs. I know travel costs will vary greatly, but I am sure the propane method would be more efficient for some locations.

As a side note, I have noted in general a tendency among cantrarians to value transport costs as much less than I would. That may be because many people have vehilces that allow them to travel rapidly with large cargos, or it may be that enough poeple like to travel so they would just as soon go on a trip to gather the resoureces themselves than pay for the extra time someone put in bringing the material here, or just that because those costs are hard to quantify (as they vary) that they are undervalued...

[nitefyre]

Making iron with propane might still be efficient in areas where coal is available but hard to get and gas is near the other resources needed. I know of at least one town where this is the case.

If it requires a long trip to get coal, you would want to get as much iron as you could from every gram of coal. This apparently doesn't apply in your situation, but to say gas should be removed from the game just because it is not useful in your situation.

As you noted in your earlier comments, the calculations you used did not factor travel costs. I know travel costs will vary greatly, but I am sure the propane method would be more efficient for some locations.

As a side note, I have noted in general a tendency among cantrarians to value transport costs as much less than I would. That may be because many people have vehilces that allow them to travel rapidly with large cargos, or it may be that enough poeple like to travel so they would just as soon go on a trip to gather the resoureces themselves than pay for the extra time someone put in bringing the material here, or just that because those costs are hard to quantify (as they vary) that they are undervalued...

Or they are just generous philanthropists?

[Surly]

I did attempt to address that issue... it is why I mentioned about the fact that making propane requires coal. If it did not require coal, then it would be a viable alternative. However, as it stands, you are better off using your coal rather than gas. If you get coal to make propane, you can get coal for smelting.

Hence I my comment about removing it...

Also, using the argument of travel costs does not address the issue I raised. WHy has it been devalued? It is a useless trade good, because most locations have nearer locations with coal, which can be mined up to 500g a day with a pickaxe, or even more with a drill Propane has a set amount (49g or so) and is not as efficient. This is as much about trade as personal gain. Before, I could trade propane to people with coal, becuase it was more efficient. Now that advantage has gone, and I would like to know the reasons and justification for that.