Is in-game progress too slow?

[Surly]

I don't think mechanical process is the goal of cantr...I like how it progresses now...with new areas starting up and old areas growing, but a certain maximum technology level for everyone. The social implications of this system are what I find really interesting, and it's a society simulator after all, not a technology-tree simulator.

I do like the current level... but the problem is that nobody factored in the affect that such things as tiredness would have. If item deterioration is ever allowed to reach its inevitable conclusion, then suddenly nobody will have any tools. They will spend all their time repairing or making new tools. That'll have as big an impact as tiredness, which destroyed any chance of a steady paying job, without extensive holidays or low wages. (I do admit that tiredness works much better now... but not before it had a huge affect). Things should be left to recover before they are given anymore hammer blows. For instance, societies were just recovering from the poorly implemented tiredness with cots and such, when the goalposts moved again. Things like that have a huge impact on society development, and I object to that.

And try to remember that the Cantr population isn't large or stable enough to achieve the levels necessary for any kind of industrial advancement.

[The Sociologist]

[...]How many organizations have more people active in basic production than I can count on my fingers? Not very many I suspect.

That's the real problem as I see it. It isn't that the game precludes development...it's just that it requires real organizational power. As it should.

Hmm, better not to lecture me on "real organizational power", Industriallist. Even assuming one takes an entire town and turns it into an organization, and then manages it as effectively as possible, further outward expansion is very severely curtailed in my experience.

And in any case, where would the extra characters come from to build these powers any larger? We have any number of clearly intelligent players--and I mean they roleplay well--join the game, and yet are out of it again in 2-3 weeks. There is nothing for them. Everywhere stasis.

Political developments are continuous (i.e. Gregor vs. Joram in KDS) in Cantr.

Oh come now. That's just a few senile old coots wagging their fingers at each other, largely ignored by most youngsters even in the towns they supposedly "control." They should be carted off to a place called "Shady Willows" to write their memoirs in peace.

I was thinking something more like a new Lad Empire arising somewhere.

Bear in mind that item deterioration didn't happen last time around. One assumes it will happen this time. It had better! Factor in that deterioration of vehicles and eventually buildings is a must somewhere down the line, then I'm simply saying that the level of production is way too low.

Also I'm getting pretty tired of the whole show being dominated by Jos's little coterie of assistants, to the point where decisions are being made purely for the benefit of the in-game success of their own charries.

I'm not anyone's performing monkey.

Things have always taken this much time I think. I agree it's a matter of finding the helping hands. If you don't have a proper resting solution and you have people who suck at smelting, of course it's going to take longer. But that was the point of putting those things in like that, I think. At least partially.

Missy, things couldn't have taken this long in the past, else there would never have been station cars in the game and clearly there are.

Furthermore, nobody currently needs a "resting solution." It's roughly that you work ten days and take one off. Cots are pointless.

Finally, nobody has the foggiest clue whether people "suck at smelting" or not. And even if they did, when you have a town of 12 active people--never mind that the apparent population is 20 or even 40--and you succeed in persuading 6 or 8 of them to work in the factory, then you are so darn grateful that you don't give a fig about their stupid friggin skills!

Are we even playing the same game? There was never any point to the skills system that makes any sense.

You guys with iron problems could also try trading with older characters. Some of mine still have thousands of grams of iron from when it came from the ground (but they do tend to hoard it, because you never know when it might be needed).

Thanks so much. You've proved my point. Couldn't have done it better myself.

[kinvoya]

From the beginning, Sociologist, you seem to have been focused on building cars. Cars are like the Cathedrals of Canr. They are huge enterprises that could conceivably take more than one lifetime. Throwing a hissy because you can't get yours built fast enough is just annoying.

Also I'm getting pretty tired of the whole show being dominated by Jos's little coterie of assistants, to the point where decisions are being made purely for the benefit of the in-game success of their own charries.

I rarely agree with you on anything and I would describe it differently but I do think there is a group of players who communicate outside of the game and get loads more benefits in various ways than other people who aren't in the clique. Their chars hook up romantically, support each other to gain power positions in major towns and recognize each other's new chars, giving them all kinds of support when other active newspawns are ignored. I've seen this in town after town and it's often made me feel like quitting all together just because I hate the whole idea of this happening. Every time someone tries to bring this up on the forum they are told to shut up and I'm sure I will be, as well. I'm not even saying this is cheating, exactly, just unfair.

My chars are doing fine, I'm not complaining for myself, personally, but I think it takes a lot of the real fun away from the game and discourages new, eager players from sticking around until they can figure out how to prosper beyond the most basic level.

[The Industriallist]

Things have always taken this much time I think.

Did you ever read Ketherspawn's post, on the mathematically determined maximum production rate for iron?

Using every relevant inplement and machine, and using teleporters for goods transport, I seem to recall the maximum yield was less that 40 grams per worker-day. Certainly less than 50...which back in the day was the daily yield using no tools of any kind.

And in any case, where would the extra characters come from to build these powers any larger? We have any number of clearly intelligent players--and I mean they roleplay well--join the game, and yet are out of it again in 2-3 weeks. There is nothing for them. Everywhere stasis.

Do you actually know this? I'm never aware of decent players quitting except the presumably good ones who announce their departures here.

Oh come now. That's just a few senile old coots wagging their fingers at each other, largely ignored by most youngsters even in the towns they supposedly "control." They should be carted off to a place called "Shady Willows" to write their memoirs in peace.

Um, no. Not even remotely. Joram isn't ignored by just about anyone active in the town. Gregor really could bring down his Mac Gregor assault on the region if he chose, from what I've seen.

I think you're looking too much though your own impatient perspective.

I was thinking something more like a new Lad Empire arising somewhere.

Been to Karnon Forest lately?
Not the same kind of empire...but it is an empire rising. I think.

Finally, nobody has the foggiest clue whether people "suck at smelting" or not. And even if they did, when you have a town of 12 active people--never mind that the apparent population is 20 or even 40--and you succeed in persuading 6 or 8 of them to work in the factory, then you are so darn grateful that you don't give a fig about their stupid friggin skills!

Are we even playing the same game? There was never any point to the skills system that makes any sense.

The bit about getting workers is sadly true...I don't see the point in complaining because the people at fault will mostly be the ones who aren't reading it.

For the skills:
I don't think that there are any manufacturing skills at all. As far as I've looked, the numbers always add up wihtout them. My impression is that the skill system is composed of a hunting skill and a fighting skill.

Oh, and cots aren't pointless. You don't need them to work anymore, but they're a big help if you're hitting a lot of people...say for a raid, or training.

Thanks so much. You've proved my point. Couldn't have done it better myself.

Not proved it, quite...but that was a very silly response to your complaint.

Also I'm getting pretty tired of the whole show being dominated by Jos's little coterie of assistants, to the point where decisions are being made purely for the benefit of the in-game success of their own charries.

If you don't have some good backup for this, please stuff it. If you (and kinvoya) do...I want to know so I can whine about it too. But really...don't throw around accusations of corruption and CR violations lightly, and if you mean them, make them complete, clear, specific, and supported.

[kinvoya]

Look at the people who list their chars on the forum and then look at who their chars interact with all over Cantr. It's not rocket science. People even talk openly about it on the forums.

Again, I don't know if it amounts to cheating. I assume there are people who watch these things. I just think everyone would have more fun and be more in the spirit of the game if it were truley annonymous.

[The Sociologist]

Using every relevant inplement and machine, and using teleporters for goods transport, I seem to recall the maximum yield was less that 40 grams per worker-day. Certainly less than 50...which back in the day was the daily yield using no tools of any kind.

Yes, well done. Without teleporters it's anywhere from 14-20 grams per worker day, unless you're right on top of 2 of the 3 critical resources and with the third just nearby. The Alenz Hills area may produce a figure of up to 30 grams or so...not sure.

Also I'm getting pretty tired of the whole show being dominated by Jos's little coterie of assistants, to the point where decisions are being made purely for the benefit of the in-game success of their own charries.

If you don't have some good backup for this, please stuff it. If you (and kinvoya) do...I want to know so I can whine about it too. But really...don't throw around accusations of corruption and CR violations lightly, and if you mean them, make them complete, clear, specific, and supported.

I never made any accusations of "corruption and CR violations". But there is no doubt that the members of the coterie see the programming needs of the game in terms of a bias springing from the experience of their own charries in-game. And as you well know, several of them are control freaks and "power gamers" par excellence. Yet us poor plebs are condescendingly advised that power gaming is a Very Bad Thing. Well, I react very aggressively to being patronized, as you've doubtless noticed...

[Bowser]

I voted "too slow". I can adapt to any changes and like Cantr no matter how long it takes to make things, but I think as we evolve, as the world grows up, things would be easier to make, machine will help production speed... that started to happen with drills and sickles... then all of a sudden with extra steps in smelting and tiredness made production slower now. Society did not advance, society actually took 8 steps backwards.

I help run a large town, a group that promises weapons and shields and tools if you join. Everyone that had joined in the past has pretty much stayed for life. Everyone was happy. We worked hard to keep a surplus of these items to hand out once a new member is accepted.

Now my storage closet is full of used items and the resources are not as quickly collected. Adapt? I can, but doesn't society learn to be more productive over the years instead of new problems alays arising to halt advancement?

I actually have more than half my people not working on projects these days. Making things isnt important anymore to me. I have made 2 vans, 2 cars, dozens of bikes, dozens of boats, 5 motorbikes wihtone character and a limo with another. That will never happen again.

[west]

Look at the people who list their chars on the forum and then look at who their chars interact with all over Cantr. It's not rocket science. People even talk openly about it on the forums.

Again, I don't know if it amounts to cheating. I assume there are people who watch these things. I just think everyone would have more fun and be more in the spirit of the game if it were truley annonymous.

I agree with this. I find, though, that certain character types gravitate to each other without any outside interference...personalities click, you know?

I've mentioned I had three characters working with three of Jerry's characters, back when he still played, and in each instance we didn't find out that the other played the other char until they were already working together.

I used to run into a lot of females played by the same females.

Although it's a bit more convenient sometimes to know who plays who, I find it's infinitely more fascinating not to.

Two of my best in-game relationships have been with people whose players I have no idea of.

Not to say that I haven't had great in-game relationships with people who's player i DID know, but these days I don't want to know the identities of anyone I don't already know.

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I have many problems with deterioration/skills and such, but they've been rehashed plenty of times. If you're curious, ask me.

[The Industriallist]

Now my storage closet is full of used items and the resources are not as quickly collected. Adapt? I can, but doesn't society learn to be more productive over the years instead of new problems alays arising to halt advancement?

As I see it, cantr is metamorphosing into a slower-building game entirely, which I don't think is a bad thing at all. I only minded back when the conversion was being permanently poisoned by leftover treasures...which, when degredation resets end, won't be an issue.

Bear in mind that we rise from a very, very low tech leve (neolithinc, basically)l to the very high level of steel weapons and cars extrememly quickly. I mean, the game is under 60 years old...until the past few hundred years, you could reliably expect no important innovations to occur in that time scale.

Yes. I actually am saying I think we develop too fast.

[Nixit]

But as we are in an age where these things are made very quickly, and this is the only age we know... I'm sure many of us think that Cantr is too slow. If that makes sense.

[west]

Cantr didn't move from neolithic to steel age.

Cantr's always had steel. There've been sabres since a couple game years after it started, AFAIK. In fact, it's gotten progressively HARDER to make them. The average tech level has only gone up due to more developed areas having more time, not due to innovation.

[The Industriallist]

Yes, cantr went from Neolithic to the steel age. Or perhaps iron age to steel age. Well...actually...steel age to steel age I guess, what with minable steel way back.

Nonirowk, at least, went from iron age to steel age. It probably did this in less than 10 years, but that doesn't mean it didn't do it. And any new settlement that doesn't bring in archaic treasure has to go all the way up. That's the shape of the world now. I don't really look at it as being the same world.

@Nixit:
A valid, reasonable point. I don't really consider it important, but that's probably because I don't find it at all a problem.

[nitefyre]

I feel more as if it is steel to iron age, Industriallist. Especially if they follow through with the item deterioration, iron becomes the new steel.

[west]

As I said, we keep moving BACKWARDS through the technology tree. As infrastructure increases, the prog department keeps making it harder for that technology to do what it used to. That means that a) it's harder to make things now, with 60+ years of infrastructure in some places than it was with no infrastructure, and b) power is concentrated in the hands of a few who are lucky enough to have legacy treasure, as has been said.

I'd say cantr had a 'sweet spot' that happened about a year and a half ago..maybe a bit after the iron change but before all this tiredness/stats etc. and some of the combat changes. That's when it was genuinely, honestly, fun to play all the time.

[Cookie]

Cantr would work better if it went faster. I don't mean make it so fast you change the game entirely, keep it like the way it is but just speed up projects, travelling etc. slightly. Citys will grow biigger and more characterfull, maps will be drawn up of very large areas. The idea of superstates could become a posibility thanks to faster travelling and the realistic possibility of cross continent trade.