Karnon Forest

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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west
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Postby west » Thu Mar 31, 2005 5:24 am

That was exactly the point of the old government. It was created (after years of no government at all) when it was made clear that if there was nobody and no rules at the top, people (TBR's Alex Mason) would attempt to fill the 'power void'. They were able to avoid it the first time, but it was a narrow escape. In retrospect that would have been a good time to disband TBR entirely.

Afterwards, a government charter was created providing for a secretary, judge, and sheriff to do the bare minimum a government should: keep the peace and keep anyone from gaining a controlling hold on the region's hematite and wood. It was to encourage free enterprise and discourage those who would try to prevent it, not to keep the Collective or any other group in power. Indeed, several groups including Tribe Blackrock flourished and overtook the Collective thanks to the freedom the government ensured. The Collective filled two of the three posts because they were voted on by the citizens of the forest. The other was filled by a TBR member.

Long story short, the system worked for ten years until TBR began to come under criticism for the behavior of some of their people in KSF; rather than ensure justice was done to that person they attempted to lock up anyone who had witnessed the incident and spoken about it, as well as anyone they thought would try to put it to right.

By this point the Secretary and Sheriff were in their 40s and the Sheriff was asleep for fairly long stretches at a time; he was due to retire the next day. Only a very fortuitous login prevented him from being killed by TBR. The Sheriff and a Collective member who had managed to escape being locked up (TBR went after the Collective specifically, both those in the government and those who weren't affiliated with it) fled the Forest for about 5 years.

Anyway, the point is the purpose of the government in Karnon Forest WAS simply to fill the power void so nobody would abuse the people of the Forest. You can't claim that they were ever restrictive. Or that the purpose of the government was to keep the Collective in a position of power because that's a pretty ridiculous claim. They weren't the ones taking public goods for personal gain.
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Postby kroner » Thu Mar 31, 2005 7:11 am

Bran-Muffin wrote:The prior government did nothing for the town, and it was meant to do nothing but keep the collective powerful there.

It's amusing to me that you as a player actually believe the old governement was a malicious tool of the Collective to exert power. But I guess it explains a lot. I was nearly convinced that you were just a very good RPer playing someone so confused yet self-righteous.

Certainly both Norbert and Rick couldn't be completely unbiased, as is the nature of people and players alike, but that's why rule of law is such a good system. If people stick by it, then their biases have minimal effect on how things run. The government was also an open one, as the Industriallist pointed out. If the elections had carried through, TBR would have had their man as the EO. This fact alone instanly debunks any claims that the Charter was a Collective tool as the Collective was retiring from the Charter's most important position and only held on to the Secretary spot because no one else would take it.
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Postby kinvoya » Thu Mar 31, 2005 8:25 am

I can't believe that you guys seem to have no idea who was actually the pre-war power player in Karnon Forest.

Dismai Inala-Lusa built up Karnon Forest from a dreary back-woods industrial town into a thriving urban center. It's no coincidence that while she lived there KF was listed as the most populated town in Cantr. For a while people actually had fun there.

The fact is that the one reason the Collective was run out of town and a war was started was because Dismai (who was Nick Blackrock's wife and the Judge in KF) hated Rick for being such a lazy, yet arrogant, ass.

For five years she chased and locked up every single criminial in KF while Rick (the supposed Sheriff) only woke up long enough to take credit for things, relive his glory days and boss her around. She finally decided he had to go whether he was in office or not. If Dismai were still alive Rick would never be allowed in KF again. She appreciated Norbert, however, and made sure he was treated well in prison.

Dismai never even considered herself a Blackrock. She was too independent to be a joiner. She let Nick list her as one because it was important to him but she never used the Blackrock name. Dismai did, however, use Blackrock resources to help everyone in KF who was interested in becoming a citizen. She started a communal housing project where citizens could have access to tools and machinery without being forced to join one of the town factions.

So, in fact, Blackrock imperialism had nothing to do with the state of affairs in that area today. It was just the wrath of a woman nobody even remembers.
Last edited by kinvoya on Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bran-Muffin » Thu Mar 31, 2005 12:05 pm

kroner wrote:
Bran-Muffin wrote:The prior government did nothing for the town, and it was meant to do nothing but keep the collective powerful there.

It's amusing to me that you as a player actually believe the old governement was a malicious tool of the Collective to exert power. But I guess it explains a lot. I was nearly convinced that you were just a very good RPer playing someone so confused yet self-righteous.

Certainly both Norbert and Rick couldn't be completely unbiased, as is the nature of people and players alike, but that's why rule of law is such a good system. If people stick by it, then their biases have minimal effect on how things run. The government was also an open one, as the Industriallist pointed out. If the elections had carried through, TBR would have had their man as the EO. This fact alone instanly debunks any claims that the Charter was a Collective tool as the Collective was retiring from the Charter's most important position and only held on to the Secretary spot because no one else would take it.


And it is amusing that you are so quick to judge yet have no idea what you are talking about.

These are views that Nick has had, the character nick. Me the player, no. I know the truth about the forest just as well as anyone else Kroner. Well ok, maybe not everyone. Maybe it was just Kinvoya that knew.

Nick saw rick as a lazy bastard just as dismai did, everything Kinvoya said about rick that is almost exactly how nick felt when rick was the sheriff. Nick was paranoid that the collective was out to get him, and the government the collective set up was another tool to help them. When people from deacuns group killed a guy and one returned to the forest nick feared again that the collective would be out to get him becuase he didnt punish the guy, so he took over with that extra push from his wife about the lazy sheriff and a selfish collective.
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Postby AoM » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:16 pm

Indeed a very rash decision. The consequences of which still reverberate through the island, for better or worse.

So... why did Dismai go away? I would think that the woman who started this all should have stuck around. Or did she have guilt over what she did?
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Postby Bran-Muffin » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:52 pm

Dismai didnt go away, she died. :(
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Postby kroner » Thu Mar 31, 2005 9:57 pm

kinvoya wrote:I can't believe that you guys seem to have no idea who was actually the pre-war power player in Karnon Forest.

Dismai Inala-Lusa built up Karnon Forest from a dreary back-woods industrial town into a thriving urban center. It's no coincidence that while she lived there KF was listed as the most populated town in Cantr. For a while people actually had fun there.

The fact is that the one reason the Collective was run out of town and a war was started was because Dismai (who was Nick Blackrock's wife and the Judge in KF) hated Rick for being such a lazy, yet arrogant, ass.

For five years she chased and locked up every single criminial in KF while Rick (the supposed Sheriff) only woke up long enough to take credit for things, relive his glory days and boss her around. She finally decided he had to go whether he was in office or not. If Dismai were still alive Rick would never be allowed in KF again. She appreciated Norbert, however, and made sure he was treated well in prison.

Dismai never even considered herself a Blackrock. She was too independent to be a joiner. She let Nick list her as one because it was important to him but she never used the Blackrock name. Dismai did, however, use Blackrock resources to help everyone in KF who was interested in becoming a citizen. She started a communal housing project where citizens could have access to tools and machinery without being forced to join one of the town factions.

So, in fact, Blackrock imperialism had nothing to do with the state of affairs in that area today. It was just the wrath of a woman nobody even remembers.


This just affirms what I was saying. The Charter was obviously not a Collective tool if the main person involved was not part of the Collective. Although I must say, she didn't adhere to the rules very strictly, which bothered my character, but he had long since ceased to have an active role.

@the bran: ok, if those aren't your views as a player, then why are you posting them on the forum as if they are. you can't say one thing and then deny that it's you're view, unless of course you knowingly twist things on the forums in order to spread propaganda/misinformation to help your character. that wouldn't be most dishonorable.

in other words, either you do believe as a player the Charter was a Collective tool, and thus my post was accurate, or you do not believe it as a player, in which case you claiming it as truth on the forums is a blatent lie, mostly likely for tbr pr. that business should be kept in game.
Last edited by kroner on Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Bran-Muffin » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:02 pm

kroner wrote:
kinvoya wrote:I can't believe that you guys seem to have no idea who was actually the pre-war power player in Karnon Forest.

Dismai Inala-Lusa built up Karnon Forest from a dreary back-woods industrial town into a thriving urban center. It's no coincidence that while she lived there KF was listed as the most populated town in Cantr. For a while people actually had fun there.

The fact is that the one reason the Collective was run out of town and a war was started was because Dismai (who was Nick Blackrock's wife and the Judge in KF) hated Rick for being such a lazy, yet arrogant, ass.

For five years she chased and locked up every single criminial in KF while Rick (the supposed Sheriff) only woke up long enough to take credit for things, relive his glory days and boss her around. She finally decided he had to go whether he was in office or not. If Dismai were still alive Rick would never be allowed in KF again. She appreciated Norbert, however, and made sure he was treated well in prison.

Dismai never even considered herself a Blackrock. She was too independent to be a joiner. She let Nick list her as one because it was important to him but she never used the Blackrock name. Dismai did, however, use Blackrock resources to help everyone in KF who was interested in becoming a citizen. She started a communal housing project where citizens could have access to tools and machinery without being forced to join one of the town factions.

So, in fact, Blackrock imperialism had nothing to do with the state of affairs in that area today. It was just the wrath of a woman nobody even remembers.


This just affirms what I was saying. The Charter was obviously not a Collective tool if the main player was not part of the Collective. Although I must say, she didn't adhere to the rules very strictly, which bothered my character, but he had long since ceased to have an active role.

@the bran: ok, if those aren't your views as a player, then why are you posting them on the forum as if they are. you can't say one thing and then deny that it's you're view, unless of course you knowingly twist things on the forums in order to spread propaganda/misinformation to help your character. that wouldn't be most dishonorable.


Ok Kroner, and you say i twist things. I didnt mean to have those appear as my views. I the player didnt care what government was set up or what group set it up, i just wanted my character to control the forest.
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Postby kroner » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:05 pm

yay
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Postby Bran-Muffin » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:06 pm

O_o
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Postby west » Thu Mar 31, 2005 10:53 pm

I always think it's amusing when people try to take far more credit than they're due. You really think the Forest was so populous because Dismai was around for 5 years towards the height of it?

The forest had always had a high population; as the population of people on K-island increased, the amount of people who wanted iron and wood naturally increased as well. Since both wood and hematite were free for the taking, people naturally gravitated there. Since you're a younger player (in terms of game experience, i mean) you probably don't realize that Karnon Forest has ranked in the top 5 or 10 cities as far as population since well before Dismai was spawned. Her ascent to power and the increase of the population in KF were largely coincidental. It would also not have been possible without the system being the way it was, which was none of her doing. During those five years there weren't many thieves and criminals anyway, that I remember, and if someone's going to take the initiative to do their job, it certainly doesn't mean they get extra kudos. Rick was a lazy bastard, as you say, largely because of OOC reasons (didn't get to log in much) but also because there wasn't really anything the government needed to do - which again, was the point.

Maybe the government is more productive now, but it's a different type of government. It's apples and oranges comparing the two, as the first was strictly non-interventionist except as far as keeping the peace.

As I recall Dismai did most of the catching and sentencing of criminals, more power to her, and Rick usually went along with what she suggested because it was reasonable.
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Postby kinvoya » Thu Mar 31, 2005 11:59 pm

I find it amusing how you guys find every thing so amusing. Superior much?

Dismai wasn't political but she did control the forest for more than five years. She became the Judge because she got tired of all the thieves escaping due to Rick's neglect of his job. She just wanted to get a key to the jail so she could lock people up. Then it turned out she was doing all the work of the sheriff and the judge. She found this very annoying especially when she had to get permission from Rick to do her job and when he accussed her of profiting from the items she picked up to discourage theft. Crime was minimal because she caught criminals and locked them up before they could do much damage. Over a six year period Rick did not arrest one single criminal. Whatever OOC reasons for why this might have been are irrelevant.

She never even thought about the government charter as a power tool for the Collective because they had no power. When Ambassador Stetson came to establish a treaty between KF and Karnon he quickly realized that Rick was a mere figurehead and Dismai was the person in charge. When he approached her to negotiate she told him to talk to Nick. Nick and Stetson eventually set up the treaty.

Rick expected to be treated like the most powerful person in KF even though his power was long gone. Nick and Dismai were young and powerful and tired of being talked down to by Rick. Since they were actually controlling the forest they decided to be upfront about it and do away with the charter which was so weak and vague it was meaningless and provided only benign neglect for the citizens. And there were actual active citizens then, not just transient hematite diggers inflating the population stats.

The plan was to lock up the Collective members until they surrendered, not to kill them. The unfortunate timing of the major changes and dragging glitches made this impossible, though, and the collective members and sympathizers who ran away told everyone across the land that TBR were slaughtering the innocent citizens of KF. In fact no one was killed or even seriously injured.

I’m not really interested in talking about wars or nit-picking all the ins and outs of char vs player motivations or perceptions like you guys seem to enjoy. I just wanted to set the record straight on one big misconception. Nick and Dismai kicked Rick’s butt out of town because they didn’t like him and they wanted to be in charge on their own terms. That didn’t start the war. It was the malicious lies spread about the incident that caused other towns to panic.

Dismai died because I thought I could escape from the clutches of Cantr. It lasted about a month. :lol:
Last edited by kinvoya on Fri Apr 01, 2005 4:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
west
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Postby west » Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:05 am

You find you and your friends sabred and dragged away to locked buildings with no warning at all and you'd assume someone wasn't trying to kill you?
No lies were spread, just the actual facts of what happened and what was assumed from them.
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Postby The Industriallist » Fri Apr 01, 2005 12:06 am

The whole point of the government was to stop them from controlling the forest, is what everyone who would know has been saying.

It's existance is clearly justified by the fact that they decided to sieze power from it...
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Postby Bran-Muffin » Fri Apr 01, 2005 3:36 am

west wrote:You find you and your friends sabred and dragged away to locked buildings with no warning at all and you'd assume someone wasn't trying to kill you?
No lies were spread, just the actual facts of what happened and what was assumed from them.


Norbert was never once sabred during that time and you know that. Lies were spread, no actual facts of what happened, just lies and assumptions that caused panic all over the island. Ben was sabred after the dragging glitch failed to lock Rick up in time and he got away when we went to get Ben, Rick was attacked then Ben, no real damage done becuase of healing foods on both sides. I recall Ben talking to some young man and then the man running off to karnon yelling how Tribe Blackrock has slaughtered all the citizens of karnon forest. You cant tell me thats not what Ben and Rick wanted.

And you cant tell me that is not a lie, there was no fact in that. Every town on the island thought Tbr had murdered all the citizens of the town becuase of that man running around the island yelling the same thing. Not one person died in the take over.

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