Imported concepts from the real world

[Lumin]

Well, while we're resurrecting this thread, I'll just mentione that an albatross is actually considered good luck, not bad.

Also, is there such a thing as an albatross in Cantr? I've certainly never seen one. I take it the ship itself is a reference to the Rime of the Ancient Mariner...

[g1asswa1ker]

Not that it really matters but do you really think that importing concepts to cantr from the real is that bad a think... cause if you do how would you play... EVERYTHING IN CANTR IS IMPORTED YOU IDOTS... govermental structures eta eta... I once read somewhere in here or some where about how dogs don't exist.. the whole concept of the cainite family doesn't exist... goddess why you all seem to want to scrap everything out but what you think should be played... cause to put it bluntly there isn't even water in the sea/ocean/lake what ever you want to call it... So I really must ask how would you really generate a means of playing anything at all inside cantr... cause I got an army of rebutles against everything you come up with...

[The Industriallist]

Not that it really matters but do you really think that importing concepts to cantr from the real is that bad a think... cause if you do how would you play... EVERYTHING IN CANTR IS IMPORTED YOU IDOTS... govermental structures eta eta... I once read somewhere in here or some where about how dogs don't exist.. the whole concept of the cainite family doesn't exist... goddess why you all seem to want to scrap everything out but what you think should be played... cause to put it bluntly there isn't even water in the sea/ocean/lake what ever you want to call it... So I really must ask how would you really generate a means of playing anything at all inside cantr... cause I got an army of rebutles against everything you come up with...

Not necessarily true. But even if it were, that doesn't mean it ought to be. The only thing that's supposed to be imported is the language, and possibly (I'm not clear on this) the RP 'appearance' of the world.

You could, in fact, play cantr without importing anything but the language. Or even without that, but most people (me included) would lack the time or ability for a language constructed in character.

So...rebut this (maybe in a discussion thread?): Cantr would work perfectly well, and be potentially rich in RP, without importing any aspect of the real world other than the english (or whichever) language.

[TQ]

One of my char's know a couple of people who have a master/servant relationship (they are male and female) The other day someone in the town started saying how she would never be a serant to her man and was basically going on about women's rights.
In the past (middle ages etc..) women were expected to do what their man told them, this attitude has changed and we now recognise women as having rights.
What I am trying to get at is how can we not use any rl info in cantr at all? We will always need to use small bits of rl info otherwise all oru char's would be walking round wondering why they cannot discriminate against certain people/groups of people.








***This post was based on a good idea but I'm drunk right now so I'm not sure if it came accross as intended***

[kinvoya]

@ TQ

I get what you are saying as far as attitudes toward sexims, racism, etc. being imported concepts from rl. We don't have different races in cantr (right? I'm not sure) but we definitely have the two different sexes and there is no in game reason why one should not oppress the other if they want to and can get away with it.

As far as the woman char speaking up about the slavery, throughout human history there have always been people who objected to the treatment of women as inferior or less deserving of basic human rights. Until relatively recently they just didn't get enough support to make changes in the laws and attitudes. In the middles ages a woman who spoke out openly against unfair treatment of women would have probably been killed (burned as a witch) or at least shunned. Cantr has some aspects of life in the Middle Ages but socialized sexism isn't one of them.

On the other hand, if a certain town or region or island somehow organized to enslave or otherwise oppress one gender then I think that would be within acceptable game play (and would be a very interesting social development, indeed). I'm surprised it hasn't actually happened yet (as far as I know).

The accidental title of this thread, "Imported concepts form the real world" is funny. I assume it was supposed to be "from"? Or maybe not.

[Oasis]

Yes it was. Changing it now.

There are some things that are hard not to bring into the game from our world. No, we don't know what a cantrian even looks like, but they can shoot a bow, so I bet they have hands, and fingers, and even opposable thumbs.

Some attributes that we give to objects must be assumed in game, taken from real life. In that water is wet, that grass covers some of the ground, that there is a sun, and even a moon, or stars in the sky, and that it gets dark out sometimes. None of this is programmed in, so we have no choice but to assume it.

No, we can't assume we have dogs, or make reference to them, because they don't exist, yet they could if the programmers chose to put them in. Until they do, the just don't.

*sighs* This is an old argument, and I know I'm just repeating the same things I've said in the past. Instead, I should just go find the thread where we've had this discussion already.

[The Industriallist]

There are some things that are hard not to bring into the game from our world. No, we don't know what a cantrian even looks like, but they can shoot a bow, so I bet they have hands, and fingers, and even opposable thumbs.

Some attributes that we give to objects must be assumed in game, taken from real life. In that water is wet, that grass covers some of the ground, that there is a sun, and even a moon, or stars in the sky, and that it gets dark out sometimes. None of this is programmed in, so we have no choice but to assume it.

No, we can't assume we have dogs, or make reference to them, because they don't exist, yet they could if the programmers chose to put them in. Until they do, the just don't.

*sighs* This is an old argument, and I know I'm just repeating the same things I've said in the past. Instead, I should just go find the thread where we've had this discussion already.

Nothing I don't think I've said before either...but I personally think Cantr would be at least as good if we didn't make assumptions like that, and only took what the game actually gives us as defining the world. I can make a number of arguements for why it would be better.

Old arguement, so unless someone else wants it to be dredged up again I'll try not to go on about it.

---------

Now, as for the joys of oppresion...
I do think, despite it's obvious convenience as the only permanent, visible distinguisher between people, it's not that likely that cantr will have gender oppression. Or at least, I don't think it would if not for it being mentioned here. Someone might get ideas...which can certainly influence character thoughts (no character can conceive of something the player couldn't, even if they should).

Firstly, Cantrians have this annoying ingrained morality. There's too little apathy to the fate of strangers, which is a prerequisite for all sorts of nice evil. I'm a guilty party in that too...I've just reallized I have at most one character that would be evil by D&D definition, and possibly all the others are actually 'good'...

Second, even when looking for evil, players are very likely to reflexively shy away from something we've been thoroughly indoctrinated against IRL. A lot of people won't even get to the step of considering whether their character might be more receptive...and then a lot of characters wouldn't be...

I'd be quite pleased if some more barbarien-style enslavement of defeated enemies started turning up. I actually think I see the seeds of that in Drojf, of all places.

[Nick]

I get what you are saying as far as attitudes toward sexims, racism, etc. being imported concepts from rl. We don't have different races in cantr (right? I'm not sure)

One of my French characters detests the Dutch. You could call that racism, I guess.

[g1asswa1ker]

There are some things that are hard not to bring into the game from our world. No, we don't know what a cantrian even looks like, but they can shoot a bow, so I bet they have hands, and fingers, and even opposable thumbs.

Some attributes that we give to objects must be assumed in game, taken from real life. In that water is wet, that grass covers some of the ground, that there is a sun, and even a moon, or stars in the sky, and that it gets dark out sometimes. None of this is programmed in, so we have no choice but to assume it.

No, we can't assume we have dogs, or make reference to them, because they don't exist, yet they could if the programmers chose to put them in. Until they do, the just don't.

Granted I'll give you the human discription (hand, finger, eta eta) As for the most part it is discribed maybe not from just your discription but from the varius clothes. Now as for water no. You can't go get it so it's not in the ocean. Nor will I concede that there is a sun, moon, star as they are not programed in. Unless you have some one program it in so that I can click on somewhere and see it. It's just not there.

This is the same reason why I resigned my position on the staff. I still think you are wrong. It allows you to smack down one person and not another at your choosing not because it's wrong or right but because you don't like there RP style.

You have to accept that concepts are imported your all guilty of it... councilors are an imported concept sorry most government styles are imported... worse yet most copy each other from one location to another regardless of distance.
A wolf is a cainite. It's part of biological diversity and classification. you know how life is broken down on earth. Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, and Species. Now by calling a wolf a dog is prefectly fine. Why cause dog does not define any particular one. At the very most you could say it means domesticated. Which is also fine. And yes the domestication of animals isn't programmed in. But, are not the loins and wolves not hunted in the hills. Couldn't that be construed as dometication. They have there purpose in that society.

So you see I can't accept your way about this. I think your way about this is half baked. Either cook it all or leave it be.. It isn't ethical. It isn't clear cut. It allows you and you alone (and your click friends) to decide what you want played and what you don't.

As for creating a slave enviroment. Your more then likely not going to find it easy to make. As most players aren't going to play a slave. There is no penalty for dieing. Your ackually reward by starting a new character. Yeah yeah suiciders. But hey it works and there is no real penaty. Mot will just steal run hit. And if you lock them up they'll just turn to knock and pull notes and waste your materials if you left them out.

[Russell of Los Angeles]

I like this subject. I've posted about it before, here:
http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2912

I would have liked to discuss it further, but it was locked before I could reply to the replies.

I think the bottom line is that playing together takes cooperation: we share our imaginations.

(Oh. And, about the dogs, let me make this point: Orcs don't exist IRL either, but we talk about them. How? Someone made them up! I don't see why a Cantrian can't make up dogs and then talk about them. Dogs in Cantr seem to be a popular mythological animal.)

[The Industriallist]

I think the bottom line is that playing together takes cooperation: we share our imaginations.

Um...I don't think I share my imagination with anyone else, actually. Even when I try, all parts of my mind remain exclusively my own.

And...you can't easily get cooperation between thousands of people who aren't even communicating with each other. And have differing basic opinions besides.

(Oh. And, about the dogs, let me make this point: Orcs don't exist IRL either, but we talk about them. How? Someone made them up! I don't see why a Cantrian can't make up dogs and then talk about them. Dogs in Cantr seem to be a popular mythological animal.)

Theoretically, that wouldn't really be a problem. But it's a totally unnecessary and potentially messy blurring of the boundaries of the world to invent something 'mythical' that happens to come from and be named just as in RL.

For instance...there's no good reason for 'dogs' to be thought up all across cantr and given the same name in every town. Which is what happens if you let it slide...

[Bowser]

I am an imperfect person. I sometimes forget I have to limit my vocabulary while playing Cantr. I may mention Dogs or mothers or other common things in the real world. I once asked someone, "Didn't your mamma teach you stealing is wrong?" only to be told by the culprit that he was spawned and had no mamma.

As for fire, who knows if that exists. It takes wood and meat to make cooked meat, but no where does it say fire is involved.

a crossbow is used to attack people, but mine has no arrows, I just hit people over the head with it.

some of my characters are wearing nothing worth mentioning, but that doesnt mean they are naked, they just have no fashion sense and no one would really comment on their clothing.

I am of the opinion that we should try to keep our ideas limited to the things in the Cantr world, but some of us imperfect people blurt out things that seem like great phrases at the time.

[Russell of Los Angeles]

I think the bottom line is that playing together takes cooperation: we share our imaginations.

Um...I don't think I share my imagination with anyone else, actually. Even when I try, all parts of my mind remain exclusively my own.

You speak your mind well. I see what you are saying. I wouldn't go so far as to say I have a piece of your mind in my posession now, but I do think you have shared your thoughts with me.

And...you can't easily get cooperation between thousands of people who aren't even communicating with each other. And have differing basic opinions besides.

It only takes two to cooperate. And I think it happens much more readily that you think. It's almost effortless, really, for two people to cooperate in playing make-believe.

(Oh. And, about the dogs, let me make this point: Orcs don't exist IRL either, but we talk about them. How? Someone made them up! I don't see why a Cantrian can't make up dogs and then talk about them. Dogs in Cantr seem to be a popular mythological animal.)

Theoretically, that wouldn't really be a problem. But it's a totally unnecessary and potentially messy blurring of the boundaries of the world to invent something 'mythical' that happens to come from and be named just as in RL.

For instance...there's no good reason for 'dogs' to be thought up all across cantr and given the same name in every town. Which is what happens if you let it slide...

The Cantr world is necessarily and unavoidably blurred, sometimes in messy ways, with the real world. Trying to stop characters from talking about dogs is much messier, I think, than the variety of creative IC ways to talk about dogs, or at least to respond to people who start talking about dogs.

[Solfius]

Now, democracies with constitutions always scream USA at me when I see them, but the basic idea behind them is so simple it may seem imported from RL but is actually very easy to achieve from fresh thought:

we have a person, they can only do so much, 2 people can do twice as much, and so on.

So lots of people can do lots of things. One person on his own would struggle, but if they worked together they can get more done faster, and cut out ther redundant steps they each do when working alone but only need doing once.

Great, we have a team, but the team needs someone to control it. A team leader, or a manager, a sergeant, or even a councillor, or senator. Bigger groups need more team leaders, and they need to work together, focussing on one aspect makes sense beceause they specialise and become experts in their field rather than trying to control aspect of everything, thus we have councils with members responsible for things.

Except, they need not be called councils. It just happens that most people call them councils because they organise all the people and then lay down laws.

If they called themselves a company people would complain if they laid down laws, so it's a matter of perception.

companies, governments, cults, organisations, they all have the same fundamental structure, it's just what you call them that differs.

the logic behind why they are organised that way is clear and separate from RL.

Once you have that structure it becomes a case of playing off people's perceptions by calling it something, call it a government and they expect laws, a company and they expect you to sell things.

The perceptions come from the language and it's associated concepts.

The structure can be realised independant of the RL, which is why I reject glasswalker's claim that "EVERYTHING IN CANTR IS IMPORTED YOU IDOTS"

[Surly]

I object to being called an IDOT...