How common is sex in Cantr?

[Pirog]

I think it is totally crazy to think like that.

Should minorities go around being extra careful with what they do and say because the white minority might get their prejudice proved if they behave like bastards or commit a crime? That's no sensible way to deal with things.

First of all...Cantr will never be a game with "lots of sex and rape", and it will never be compared to games like Manhunt. You have blown it totally out of context.
As I explained earlier I certainly don't want a "rape button" or anything like it...I was simply saying that we shouldn't stop attempts to force rape OOC. It is possible to rape people in the current Cantr and we have neither seen lots of it or any scandals. You are simply worrying way too much...

Secondly, people that still thinks that RPGs and violent movies turn kids into murderous beasts are idiots...and personally I don't think we should adjust to their idiotic and uneducated view of the world simply because they are usually the ones screaming the loudest.

A similar thing happened in Sweden about a year ago. A young man was murdered and butchered. The media found out that he was into some kind of live vampire RPG and suddenly the loud mouth idiots were rounded up screaming about how dangerous that is.
What is the solution? Remove all movies, literature and games involving vampires? Do you seriously think the crowd would stop shouting because of that?

In the end we would have a society without any forms of creative or provocative elements and then you would probably be better off dead in the first place...

[Surly]

Yes they will.
There have been reports of this in the newspapers and on the internet of this happening to a man from the Netherlands. These men where caught by FBI agents, posing as children on the internet.
Granted, some of these were going to the US to perhaps do the physical act there, but they were arrested when they entered the US.

And kinvoya replied the same thing independently, so don't you think there might be some truth to it?

I have to say I couldn't stop laughing when I read that... How can you possibly compare that to Cantr? For a start, the men were posing as minors in that example... in Cantr it is the other way around. And secondly... well, doing the physical act is very different from the actual thing. *shakes his head* Using that example bears no relation to Cantr...

[wichita]

I'm not shaking and about to soil my armor in fear of prosecution or anything, but I do have to consider the responsibilities for my actions, even in the name of roleplaying.

I fully believe in free speech and the freedom of expression and all that stuff. I can understand throwing down a well timed f-bomb in a rant, marching down main street in a protest, getting spanked by a super model, or whatever somebody feels they need to do so long as it isn't hurting anybody. (I won't even raise an eyebrow if somebody poops paint onto canvas and calls it art...though I don't have to understand it.)

But the key phrase in all of that is "so long as it's not hurting anybody", right? I know it's gray area most of the time and open to interpretation -- and believe me everybody is entitled to their opinion, that's what's so great about free society, right? So occasionally some members of the society need to be mature enough to pause and evaluate the effect their actions will probably have on the fellow citizens around them.

There was a point in here somewhere...Oh yeah. Should it be alright for us to roleplay sex in the game? I'll ask how it is any different from portraying sex in film? Cantr sex is not cybersex, and I would hope that it would never be blown out of proportion to appear as such in a frivolous court case (I'm assuming that's a fair statement in Europe; Unfortunately I may be placing too much faith in the legal system here in the States as -- let's face it -- we few, proud, intelligent Americans are surrounded by idiots), so I'm personally not terribly worried about winding up in prison as a pedophile. As long as both players (actors if you will) want to participate in an artistic exploration of that situation, long live free speech. If it requires the OOC green flag to distinguish that kinky "Rape me!" from the "Hey jackass! I don't want to play anymore!" so be it.

I guess I would say that we should just try to listen to each other's game cues while playing, hope for the best, and the sky's the limit just so long as you don't violate your fellow player's personal limits (which I guess would likely be somewhere below the sky for some of us), because we have to consider the possibility that the person on the other side of the internet doesn't want to explore that situation with you, or is underage, or is psycho and believing it is reality, or insert your own slippery slope. Charging recklessly ahead all in the name of roleplaying isn't a get out of jail free card.

How's this ... just because you drank a pint of pints last night doesn't mean it will stop hurting when you pee.

Just a few more opinions to muddy the waters even more.

[Jetlag]

No, Pirog, *you* have blown things out of proportion. My edits were very deliberately interspersed with lots of "ifs" - I was not suggesting any of it might actually happen, I was putting forward hypothetical situations. I say again:

Just for clarity, I'm not suggesting we should never have any mention of sex in Cantr, nor am I suggesting that this kind of thinking should cast a shadow over roleplaying and enjoying Cantr, I just think it is something that should be borne in mind when sensitive issues arise.

This is a long way from suggesting that we should all be "extra careful" or that we should worry about being sued at every turn, or that we should adjust to other people's "idiotic and uneducated" views.

When Dungeons & Dragons was new, people accused players of being demon worshippers. Now Hollywood make films about it. It has acheived general acceptance not by shouting back at its accusers, but by simply not living up to their worst fears.

[swymir]

Now Hollywood make films about it.

If you can call that a film.

[Jetlag]

Now Hollywood make films about it.

If you can call that a film.

I didn't say it was a *good* film

[kroner]

i agree with wichita here. sex in cantr is iffy enough as it is. you don't really know who it is on the other end, which could potentially be a problem, but at least there you have that person's consent. they have willingly put their character in to that situation. so if they're exposed to something objectionable it's clear that they were alright with that.

once you start allowing rape, anyone at anytime is potentially open to some seriously explicit content. not everyone is cool with that. if someone isn't comfortable with this sort of thing, i don't think they should have to be forced to deal with it or have to quit cantr. that's not right.

[Pirog]

kroner>

I just don't understand what about rape is so much more horrific than killing and torturing people...a topic I have never seen anyone react that much too. Is it just the sexual context that makes the subject so very hard to deal with?

[nitefyre]

Suggestion for the tailors:

A Chastity Belt.

And my addition on the topic is just let it be played as it always has been, if someone's trying to rape someone with terrible roleplay, in most cases seems to be the issue, report them to the PD and ignore them as I think has already been suggested. In the end, it is up to the two players at both ends of the characters, you do have freewill.

Well not me, I'm obligated to play Cantr. Hmph.

[SekoETC]

Yeah Pirog that's the point! Now what makes sexual violence worse than any other kind. In Cantr the problem might be that since it isn't programmed in, people will use explicit language to describe what they're going. For example compare

"A man in his twenties hits you with a sabre. You lose 50% strenght",

to

"A man in his twenties says: *He comes closer with a gloomy smile on his face, forces you to kneel in the mud and grabs you by the hair with his left hand, forcing you to look up. You feel the cold kiss of steel on your cheek, see the glistening blade creeping upwards towards your eye. You cannot break free of his grasp, closing your eyes will not make no difference. The agony hits you like a bolt of lightning through your head as the blade strikes forth. Right before you pass out you hear him saying:* Don't worry, I'll wait till you wake up before I take the other one."

Now if there would be A man in his twenties rapes you and you lose 99% mental health, I don't need to put an example of that do I?

There ain't much physical torture in Cantr, not that I know of. You can be worried about a loss of health but it's only numbers. Putting it into words is what creates the pain and the average crook is too hasty or unskilled to know how to write, or then the victim doesn't care about reading.

But this is sliding off topic now.

[kroner]

kroner>

I just don't understand what about rape is so much more horrific than killing and torturing people...a topic I have never seen anyone react that much too. Is it just the sexual context that makes the subject so very hard to deal with?

i will tell you why rape is more horrific than killing (and mind you, there is no such thing as torture in cantr).

1) violence in cantr is not graphic. violence is programmed into the game and so people very rarely describe it with rp. when was the last time you saw:

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a man in his twenties says: "*rushes at the woman, sabre brandished.*  Die!!! *swings brutally at the woman's face.  the blade cuts into her cheek, and makes a dull thunk as it hits the bone.  the woman's eyes go wide as her head is knocked to the side, the blood pouring from her gaping wound.  he mouth is opened, but she is mute with shock.  pulls the sabre with obvious effort from the woman's face and draws back.  swings again, this time hitting the womans neck, and partially severing it.  the woman lets out a what appears to be a scream, but it seems caught in her damaged throat.  all that emerges is a gurgling sound as more blood spills from her mouth and sprays from the side of her neck.  she falls to her knees, her eyes still wide, but the life slowly fades from them.  then she topples, blade still planted solidly in her neck.  blood pools around her lifeless body.  places foot on her head and yanks the sabre out forcefully as a new wave of blood is released.  turns to the watching towns people.*  Is there anyone else who wishes to oppose me?"

no, you don't ever see that. people shouldn't have to see that if they don't want to, although now you've made me have to post that anyway. all you get in game is:

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you see a man in his twenties kill a woman in her twenties using a sabre.

now if sex becomes programmed into the game, and all you see is:

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you see a man in his twenties have sex with a woman in her twenties.

then maybe, just maybe, i would even accept it if this could happen without consent of the second character (with restrictions of course). but that's very different from the sort of rape you're talking about.

2) no one who is particularly offended by violence could reasonably expect to play any sort of game like this. such a game without violence would hardly work, and everyone is well aware of that. none of this is so with regards to sexual content.

edit: i hadn't read seko's post when i wrote this, but now i see she already adressed most of the same points. whoops.

[Chrissy]

That's o.k. Kroner, we're all making the same point over and over and I realized that Pirog isn't listening . Pirog, it seems as if you're not even to trying put yourself on the otherside, even for a moment. Have you viewed it from the other side yet? Really put yourself in the shoes of the char being raped?

I think, and these are my views on the game, not life, that killing is acceptable because Cantr is for the most part a non-violent game, but would be a boring game if we didn't have atleast some sort of combat system. If someone kills your char, game over you loose. Rape is inflicting torture, and the character that is raped, is going to have to live with that for the rest of their character life. I think that's ugly. I didn't sign up for some rape and torture game.

C.

[Pirog]

kroner>

So if anyone RPed violence in the way you quoted you think he/she should be stopped? If you do that is of course a valid argument...that graphic violence and sex might be too offending for some people.

I on the other hand would applaud such an excellent way of describing how you killed someone...but I can certainly respect your perspective, if you do actually have that perspective.

But I must admit that I believe there would be little objections if such graphic violent details were common in Cantr...I think this issue about rape is connected more with OOC moral and people thinking sex in general is a somewhat tabu subject.

Chrissy>

Perhaps I haven't been listening. Personally I don't that feel murder is more acceptable if it is less bloody and graphic than IRL (**)...but I'm starting to understand that my perspective might not be shared by the majority.

And I have viewed it from the other side. This certainly doesn't have anything to do with male and female players if that is implied, since most people are playing characters of both sexes.

I have, for example, had a character crawling around on the floor begging her captors for mercy. I actually suspected that they might rape her...and she would do anything to keep her life...but they chose to brutally kill her instead.
Perhaps such events should be banned to protect the minority of people taking offence of such issues, but I think that would make Cantr a lesser game. Personally
I believe her death was great. I didn't even miss the character, although I had big plans for her, because she died in a way that made sense and was interesting instead of just being chopped up by people not saying a word.

If a character has yours cornered and demands sex not to kill them you would always have the alternative to fight to the death instead of getting raped...and thus avoiding the matter if you are offended by it.
I want as little interference as possible by PD as long as no actual rules are being breached. I don't think rape will ever be a common thing in Cantr...in a way it will be even harder to force yourself on someone with a programmed intercourse project where both character would have to "participate", since the current system allows you to write about such physical actions freely without bothering about starting such a project.


** To explain my view. I think the amount of violence caused by people inspired by movies would be much less if these movies showed realistic effects of violence. If instead of people taking several kicks to the head à la the Van Damme flics and shaking it off they would instead die of the severe injuries such a kick actually makes to a person people would hesitate more to punch or kick anyone in a fight.
I think it actually would work the samw way in Cantr. If you would hit a man in his twenties with your sabre and that player would RP him falling to the ground, visually describing how the man presses his hand to the bleeding wound while pleading for his life or screaming in agony or terror I think most players would hesitate more to finish that guy off than if he didn't respond at all or shouted back "you bastard!" or something else making the effects of a sabre cut look clean and non-violent.

[Anthony Roberts]

Violence is coded the way it is BECAUSE of the reason that people won't cooperate in role playing.

If you role played your sabre slashing at someone, they would heve to role play a dodge, or role play a hit. That takes time. And also, there's a chance they role play that it misses (And there's a chance they role play they're ALWAYS missed, so that they continue to live forever), and there's also a chance of them ignoring the role play altogether. Point being, violence was implemented the way it is so that it would be a forced gesture. You swing at someone, a random dice (Non-biased dice) roll to check, and taadaa, you hit or you don't.

I understand how rape should be implemented like such, because the same thing will happen that happens now - the other person ignores it. Yes, that IS bad role playing, but a lot of people find in morally wrong and refuse to participate in it.

Then, of course, there is COPPA, they like to run around on the internet finding children that look at sexual things, and slap them silly and their parents silly for letting it happen. Chances are, any minor in Cantr that participates in sex, role play or otherwise, COPPA will eventually find out and sue the living shit out of Cantr for it's open-ended way of not condoning the actions of minors. Of course, Cantr can't DO anything about it. If a minor decides to role play sex, that's THEIR decision and it should be THEIR responsibility, but both COPPA and the law disagree, in that its the responsibility of the website that they are on. (Why else would porn sites have disclaimers? 'You must be 18 years or older to access this site.' - As soon as a minor disobeys that warning, and access the site, it's the minors fault. But if that disclaimer isn't there, it's the websites fault, even if the minor willingly knew what it was or not. And, you'd think by the title "SUPER SEX BANGERS" or something, they'd piece together what the site would be.)

Personally, from my point of view, I think any and all role playing situations should be acted out fairly. If my character is raped, or decides to rape another, I would -expect- the other to willingly submit to those actions, or role play them fighting my character off, or SOMETHING. But since this isn't a eutopian world, and most people will just ignore the role play, nothing will end up happening, and it'll just sap the fun from the game.

Fun, you say? For rape? Yes, fun. Rape is something that determines how a person is like. I can guarantee, after someone, man or woman, has been raped, they're mentally scarred, probably depressive, all that stuff, right? And if it were role played, then chances are the character would change, and develop, just like characters are suppost to. Just like they'd change and develop based on the people around them. Someone says your character is arrogant, your character might try to improve, correct? Your character might also become more arrogant just to piss them off, correct? The point is, although rape is a disgusting thing in this world, IT EXISTS, and shouldn't be censored, and should be welcomed with open arms.

Now to PROGRAM rape, that would just suck. Why? We have attacking programmed because people are bound to not agree with attacking. If raping were programmed, chances are the character wouldn't be role played differently after the tramautic experience. You don't see characters role playing their arm having been cut off after getting attacked, do you? You don't see them role playing bleeding, or limping, do you? Well, okay, you do, but those would be the people that ENJOY role playing. People like Seko. People like me. In an ideal world for her and I, everyone would role play every situation, but that just will never happen unless we add either: Some strict rules to FORCE role play - Or program in the things that people won't role play.

Both of those will ruin the games atmosphere. Why? They both FORCE you to do something. It removes the players option of choice. Humans like the ability to choose. Once it's removed, we all get pissy. People don't like being TOLD what to do, they like being given the OPTION of what to do. But with the option of what to do, comes the problems of those that take the yellow brick road, and 'decide' they'll ignore the post that was made, and pretend nothing happened, which avid role players would see as WRONG.

In any case, stop your bickering and arguing.

Why?

Because if it's programmed, the game will suck.
If people are forced to role play every situation, the game would suck.
If the game were left the way it were, everything will be fine.

The point is, if you're going to participate in rape, perhaps you should OOC the player first, ask if it's alright. If it's not, find an alternate way to get your point across. Lock them in a room, starve them to death. Kill them. Torture them by stabbing them every few days or so. Rape is just a form of torture, and there are several ways you can torture already. If you want to rape, find out if it's okay. If its not okay, do something else. Simple as that, people, simple as that.

But of course, those role players out there (Such as myself) think that's STUPID and you should have to role play EVERY situation, as stated several times before, it just won't happen.

Comprimise.

Ask first.

If it's not okay, do something else.

This is the SIMPLIST solution, without ruining the game. So embrace it.

[Chrissy]

Anthony, I think you're great, but your views on this are a little crazy. You need to get layed if you think rape should be embraced in Cantr.

Pirog, I see your view better now, it just boils down to a preference in game. I don't play San Andres, I play Spyro, Zelda, new Marios, stuff like that. When looking for a computer game I picked one that did not embrace violence. If Cantr were to change in that direction then that's something I'd have to consider. It'd be like someone pulling Okage out of my system, in the middle of my game, and slipping in True Crimes. I'd be like, mmm, no thanks... and not play. As always, I think we're all right, it's just a matter of opinion.

C.