Physical character descriptions

Out-of-character discussion forum for players of Cantr II to discuss new ideas for the development of the Cantr II game.

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wichita
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Physical character descriptions

Postby wichita » Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:06 am

Would it be a good imporvement to have a text box where players could enter a short physical description of their character i.e tall dark and handsome kinda thing?

***

I've been browsing the forum for a couple of days trying to find it mentioned or discussed, but I'm kind of too lazy to get past page 3 (grad student, what can I say). I realize that this sort of thing could come up in RP conversation, but it just seems kind of awkward. When was the last time you found your pickup line at the bar was "So, what color is your hair? Describe yourself to me." 8) (OMG this sounds like phone sex.) Not to mention the annoyance of having to tell every new person you run into "I've got blond hair, blue eyes, and a beer gut."

I guess all I'm trying to say, is. It might help enhance, and speed up the RP process if we had a hook to start from more than "woman in her twenties wearing nothing worth mentioning". Although that does get some ideas started :shock: :idea: :D :wink:

I wouldn't guess the extra data in the database would put such a huge additional drain on system resources, just a length-limited string variable like the one we have now for naming people we meet.
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social moth
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Postby social moth » Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:18 am

This has been discussed before. And honestly, I don't see the point. I hardley ever run in to a situation where I have to describe my charecter, and when I do it's usually something you can be general about.

Why have this...
*she runs her hands through her shiney purple hair, slowly moving them to her green cheeks*

When you can just do this....
*she runs her hands through her hair, slowly moving them to her cheeks*
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mortaine
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Postby mortaine » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:19 am

I actually like this, because there are certain things about some of my characters that would be more obvious if people looked at them. For example, one of my characters seems kind of stupid, but in fact he's not dumb, just not talkative. There are visual cues (like the non-vacant stare) that would help others realize he's not the village idiot.

Basically, it would make it possible for those of us RPing visible disabilities to be more obvious.
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Postby DylPickle » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:28 am

I like this too. It could be a way of identifying important people as well. Instead of saying "Our leader is the fourth oldest man in his fouties on the list", you could point him out by decribing him. "the man in his fourties, with the grey beard."
Could be updated to show major scars, hair cuts, etc... One big problem, though, would be poor RPers going from "bald and fat" to having a full afro and a 6-pack in one day.
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Postby Neelix » Wed Jan 19, 2005 10:04 am

Another thing is that it seems that charries now have different strength and this could of course be visible in how they are built.

But then again, perhaps this is already a bit shown with the "He is weak,.." which all new chars seem to have.
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Postby wichita » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:54 pm

To quote mortaine:
"...there are certain things about some of my characters that would be more obvious if people looked at them. For example, one of my characters seems kind of stupid, but in fact he's not dumb, just not talkative. There are visual cues (like the non-vacant stare) that would help others realize he's not the village idiot."

I think this type of thing is what I had in mind when I threw out the idea of enhancing and speeding up the RP. I my opinion Verbal Kint in The Usual Suspects was one of the greatest film characters of all time and one of the reasons he was so intriguing was the fact that he had the limp and withered hand for no apparent reason. But wow, did it ever pay off in terms of character development! I think it's that type of thing and scars, tats, etc , maybe more than the typical hair/eye color size things, that the game could truly benefit from.

I guess I'm just kind of fascinated by playing off of quirks at times more than the dialog. Good character actors play off of more than just the dialog, right? That's why the Coen brothers make such rockin' films. It's those subtle little mannerisms and quirks that can really flesh out a character if you're paying attention, and such things can be hard to bring up repeatedly in conversation.

Having managed to find and read through some of the other threads on the topic I don't mean to beat a dead horse, but it looks like if there's one thing the forum is not afraid of, it is continual ranting :wink: I'm just trying to find something to help in those villiages where the newspawn wakes up surrounded by either mute potato farmers or the "high school" where all the cool kid thirty year olds are whispering to each other and not trying to incorporate the new guy into the collective. Wait a sec, maybe I got spawned into a colony of mimes...
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Postby Jetlag » Wed Jan 19, 2005 12:57 pm

It would be nice to have some kind of description. A couple of times I've told people to go look for a particular character, and it would have been much easier if I'd been able to say "Go look for so-and-so, he's the tall one with blond hair"

I don't know about updating it, though. It could lead to too much confusion if people change what they look like, and I don't think we really need to be able to update it. After all, someone born with green eyes and brown hair is always going to have green eyes, and there's nothing to say that Cantrians go grey or bald.
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Postby Pirog » Wed Jan 19, 2005 1:43 pm

I also hope this feature will be included.

There are obvious reasons for desciptions to be included. With the current system it is possible for my character to fall in love with someone because he/she find him/her very beautiful when that player has imagined their character to be hideously misfigured for example.

We could of course have the Industrialist solution that people in Cantr really all looks exactly the same since the current functions doesn't say otherwise, but that would be very sad for people like me who want some life in the their characters.

The main problem with a free form text description would of course be people abusing it. They commit a crime with their character with blond hair and a twined beard, and when they leave town they change the description to having dark hair and clean shaven.

My suggestion is that a part of the Players Department (me for example) would have to approve of changes in the description. There could be a simple feature for this that would send your former description along with the new one and also a field where you would motivate why the changes are taking place.

This may seem like an unimportant feature, but I really think it would make Cantr a lot more fun and would also further social relations and good role play.
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Postby Lumin » Wed Jan 19, 2005 2:53 pm

Right now in the game you can sort of identify people by their clothes (that guy with the crown is the king), but I do think that some kind of description would make things more interesting. It doesn't need to go overboard, even just hair and eye color would be nice.

Though I don't know about the PD approving it; that would just add more busywork when their obviously already in way over their heads. Why can't descriptions just be randomly assigned? In real life, it's not like you decide what you're going to look like before you're born, and in Cantr your characters are supposed to be blank slates anyway; you're not supposed to plan out their appearance and peronalities ahead of time. (though I think a lot of people do it anyway). Some kind of feature that's unusual for the area they spawn into could very well change the way their personality develops, which would be a lot more in the spirit of naturally evolving RP than just deciding your character's going to look a certain way because it matches the personality you picked for them before they were ever spawned.

That said, the ability for chars to get tatoos, dye their hair, etc. after being spawned would be awesome. :)
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Postby SekoETC » Wed Jan 19, 2005 3:25 pm

This was discussed somewhere before and then seemed like everyone was against it. Of course I would like this option very very much, and also would be nice if the description could be changed at least partially without having to send it to a moderator that checks that it goes together with the previous description, because then I could abuse it for showing for example what kind of expression they have in an empty room, if someone pops in. Ok you might think that's stupid but I (sorry to admit) sometimes have characters crying in lonely places and it's sooo stupid when someone walks in and starts talking to them like everything was alright.

Think about it, before even names could not be changed. Now you can have what ever you want in there, tell a different name to every single person. Ok I didn't want to be telling every character I meet that mine looks like something, and that's why we gotta have this option. Even if it had to go through a moderator to be changed, though I really hope that it wouldn't, just make a rule that you can't change your description deceivingly unless the character really does something to change that - for example uses dirt or coal to darken their face. I wouldn't want to come to a situation where someone says ok I know I've seen that person before but since they now have green skin and yellow hair when they used to have blue skin and purple hair, they can't be him.
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Postby Lumin » Wed Jan 19, 2005 4:43 pm

But the thing is, do you really have to tell people how you look? I mean, I usually have a picture in my mind of what my characters look like but it's never come up in a conversation, and I can think of very few cases where appearance would actually be essential to roleplaying. Actually I sort of like the fact that when you form opinions on people in Cantr it's based entirely on the way they act, not the way they look, (unless you count clothes or the kind of weapon they're carrying.) That alone encourages roleplay, because a person's character is basically invisible unless they decide to get involved and interact with other people.

Actually, now that I've thought of it a little more, the only way I'd support the idea of character descriptions (other than things you can reasonably expect to change after spawning) is if they were automated and randomly assigned. Otherwise you're going to wind up with a bunch of tall, dark, men with piercing black eyes, or voluptuous, long-legged redheads with emerald green eyes, or the strong silent types with scarred faces and mysterious pasts. (how did they get the scar if they were just spawned five minutes ago?)

I just don't think I could handle Cantr being overrun with a bunch of over-RPed stereotypes on top of all the current problems.

And a little off topic here, but in a situation where you're 'crying in a lonely place' why would a person need to see you to know you're upset? Wouldn't you be capable of letting them know some other way? Tell them you don't feel like talking, or sniffle a little and tell them you just want to be left alone. Heck, throw a fit, accuse them of not caring about your feelings and storm out of the room, leaving them standing there with a befuddled look on their faces wondering what they said. (That last would probably be closest to real life for a lot of people... :D )
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Postby SekoETC » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:02 pm

Lumin, that's what I do! But the problem is if a person is entering a room, they do it for a purpose, most likely because they got something to say or they're looking for something, and they're going to say something stupid and maybe even walk out before you ever come online, because they don't know of this rp'd emotional state. I often check people's descriptions when I go to a room, if they are not working on a project then I think they're sleeping. With the same trouble there could be a line about their current physical state. And people who feel like rushing, well, we can't avoid that, there are people in real life also that can't sense other people's feelings. But at least there should be some way to make those feelings able to be noticed without a need for the other player to be online.
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Postby Pirog » Wed Jan 19, 2005 6:47 pm

Lumin>

But the thing is, do you really have to tell people how you look? I mean, I usually have a picture in my mind of what my characters look like but it's never come up in a conversation, and I can think of very few cases where appearance would actually be essential to roleplaying.


That probably have more to do with your way of playing than being the general situation in Cantr. (Or, I wouldn't be surprised if most people shared your view, but I don't see why the often so dedicated RP minorty should have to suffer for that...)

I would like some sort of randomized general description too though, with the free text description as an (optional) way of giving your character a more unique touch.

I very often run into problems with the lack of descriptions. Here is some of the current ones...

Michael Tennek. Since he lost his wife he has lost his will to live. The formerly so proper man now has wrinkled clothes, an ill kept beard...and his eyes are often red and swollen from crying. How do I let people know this? I keep including it as *...* before he says or does anything...probably annoying people who have to read it several times.

Dugall. With his blood coated fur cloak, ill kept and unwashed hair and tangled beard, as well as the many scars from encounters with both animals and men covering his body, I don't want people talking to him and saying. "oh, aren't you cute"...because HE ISN'T! :)
I would prefer if people could see this description and for example people playing some snotty nobleman could make the decision to frown at him or generally just ignore him...or perhaps feel threatened by him.

Tyrone Jets. The guy is black...but nobody ever seems to picture people as being black, so during the situations when it comes up there are always a lot of irritating "OOC: Oh, didn't know..." comments in return.

These are just some examples...

I sort of like the fact that when you form opinions on people in Cantr it's based entirely on the way they act, not the way they look, (unless you count clothes or the kind of weapon they're carrying.) That alone encourages roleplay, because a person's character is basically invisible unless they decide to get involved and interact with other people.


But that feels more like a moral than what you seem realistic. Sure, it is nice that for example people can't talk over the Internet without having to judge the other by age and looks...but it wouldn't be natural for people in Cantr to do that unless all Cantrians looked exactly alike...and I really hope they don't.

And I don't share your view about it encouraging roleplay...I find it the exact opposite. Almost all paper&pen RPGs have a section where you describe your character as carefully as you can...and there is a reason for that, because people judge you by how you appear.
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Postby wichita » Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:22 pm

Ditto, Pirog.
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Postby Jos Elkink » Wed Jan 19, 2005 9:56 pm

I like some of the ideas in here somewhat :) ...

I don't really like the freestyle descriptions for reasons mentioned above - people can for example add scars etc. when they didn't even fight. And a PD checking all these descriptions is too much work and the PD cannot see what happened in the lives of those that are described to be able to judge the quality of the text.

Also changing seems awkward - someone looks don't suddenly change. It would seem unfair if one could become a better criminal simply by changing the looks when changing the name.

It also doesn't quite fit too well with the overal system where everything physical is programmed into the system and everything social is left to the players. Looks are partly social, but partly physical. I like for example the idea of scars, but only when they are the automatic result of animal attacks, not when they are just written into the game by players. Similar with things like dying your hair - a nice feature indeed, but it should require paint which should then be a tradable resource in the game, not just some imaginative writing of the character description.

Finally, we currently have genes in the game. At the moment they only determine the skills of a character, but I would like to see this develop further so that gradually (admittedly *very* gradually) different races or at least typical looks for areas will come into existence. This requires that looks are assigned by the genes, not by the player.

This all said, I do agree that the game would become more interesting if people had a better idea of what other characters look like. I am playing another more graphical game that is slightly similar to Cantr (see thread about other games) and there you do have a visual avater, which greatly adds to the impression you have of a character, independent of their behaviour. I must add, though, that behaviour is also much less interesting than in Cantr, so that you get little of an impression on behaviour only, while you definitely do in Cantr. I would like it a lot of somewhat more information about characters would be visible. This should be based on genes, however, and on specific settings in the game (e.g. eye colour, hair colour, length, weight, etc. - things like that), not on a freestyle description.

Of course, players that have long played a character do not suddenly want to find their character to look completely different than they imagined. Therefor, a good strategy could be that all existing players get 2 weeks time to define manually the looks of their characters and after these two weeks all 'blanks' will be filled in and new characters will get their looks only through genes (hence 'random').

By having it defined in this way, it will also be better possible to have effects in the game due to looks. E.g. more sunburn for whiter people, or fat people behing heavier to drag, or tall people walking slightly faster - whatever. (I'm just making these up right now, they're not 'promises' ;) ...) It also allows for slightly more flexibility if we later change to a more graphical representation of these looks, as these looks can be directly translated by the computer into a graphical avater.

It would be really cool if attacks could lead to scars, or perhaps even handicaps etc. That would be a step further and not necessarily immediately implemented, but it would definitely be an interesting addition.

Of course, as always, a crucial problem is lack of time among the programmers ;) ... But there are still people applying for this dept, so perhaps we can get some things going in the future.

I'd be interested in comments :) ...

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