How common is sex in Cantr?

[kinvoya]

Laws may be different in Europe but in the United States it is illegal for an adult to have sexual contact with a minor on the internet. Just because a minor has been exposed to sexual content does not justify an adult knowingly engaging in sexual activity with him or her.

Often children who have been sexually abused will willingly continue to engage in such behavior with adults. This is because they have been mentally and emotionally damaged and they are vulnerable to predators.

I believe that an adult who would have sexual contact with a minor on the internet is a pedophile and the US legal sysem agrees with me.

[Jetlag]

I don't think sexual contact via the internet with those under 16 is illegal in the UK in and of itself, but there are certainly any number of related offences. I dare say other European countries also have various related laws, if not a specific law directed at cybersex with minors.

[SekoETC]

I... don't think I'd wanna see programmed in rape in Cantr, ever, it would just be too easy to use. Since violence you can prolong by allowing only one hit a day, that can be explained by that the victim keeps running around or something, but arrgh, if there was one rape a day, no defense option... gosh. Ok I don't think programmers would be stupid enough to do it like that. But anyway though I sadly think every man is a potential rapist, it's a minority of them that ends up committing it, and then do it several times if they're not stopped, it's not like every person would rape for example three people in their lifetime. Like in Cantr some nice guy may be killing a note thief every year and that's ok but what if they raped the note thief instead? Could an average annoying kid understand the shame? Only thing they'd see is that they're still alive and keep running.

If Cantr would have a rape option then I think it should be only be allowed to used by and on characters controlled by an adult player - which does create huge problems, how could we tell they're not lying in signup etc...

[mikki]

I, myself would not want rape added into cantr and not because of minors in a game.. I don't think it is right to force someone to do something that they do not want to do.. I have been in certain situations in which I was forced to do things...

and on another note... Let me get this straight.. you are trying to tell me that I should not let my char's have sex because the other player MIGHT be a minor? My char's are the ones doing it.. while I am not.. I do not in any way get turned on by what my char's do.. Oh and if I remember corerrctly, this game is anonomus... (can't seem to be able to spell tonight but you get the idea).. Am I right?

[social moth]

*looks maniacally on at the quarreling* MWAHAHAHAHAHA!


No...seriously. Who said that the women would be the ones getting pregnant? Wouldn't it make more sense if there was a 50/50 chance on who got pregnant. Unless there is a profalactic tool, of course.

[Jetlag]

mikki,

I don't think anyone is trying to stop you roleplaying sex, nor trying to have it banned from Cantr. People are just concerned that those who do initiate sex in Cantr do so with some knowledge of the issues surrounding it, and have some consideration for the fact that the other player may not wish to roleplay sex and may be underage.

[Neelix]

Engaging in cyber-sexual activities may or may not be illegal in Europe, I'm not sure. But what I do know is that if you commit it in Europe, with a minor in the USA, then there's a big chance they will haul your sorry ass overthere and lock you up. And if they can't get you there, there is no way you are ever going to enter the USA unpunished.

The argument that it is only roleplaying in Cantr and that the characters are doing it may sound nice to you, but I don't think it will hold when you are prosecuted.

So you better make damn sure that you know the other person is over 18. And if they lie to you about their age, then it's something else.

[Black Canyon]

kinvoya and Neelix,
Since the two of you seem particularly knowledgeable on the subject, perhaps one of you could post or provide a link to this specific law?

[Pirog]

To all>

First of all I would like to clearify that I would not want an actual "rape function" in Cantr. But in the hypothetical situation where there is some kind of intercourse project I think it would be wrong if the PD restricted ways to force people into such a project because of OOC moral...

Jetlag>

We're not just shouting about 14 year olds, and when we are, it's not just out of being prudish, but out of being aware of the blame culture we live in.

Games and roleplay already gets an awful lot of blame when young people do stupid things. If Cantr featured sex more heavily, or if rape happened with any kind of frequency, it would open itself up to being a scapegoat for all those 14 year olds who end up getting pregnant or whatever.

But you do realize that this "blame culture" is upheld because people like you take it into consideration? Nothing will ever change if you just play along with it...

kinvoya>

Laws may be different in Europe but in the United States it is illegal for an adult to have sexual contact with a minor on the internet. Just because a minor has been exposed to sexual content does not justify an adult knowingly engaging in sexual activity with him or her.

Seriously? I didn't know that. I very much doubt it would be applied to the case of sex in an RPG though. And just to be sure the programmers could easily include a "do not engage in activities that may be illegal in your country" disclaimer. You see...you can't connect laws to all cases. Making death threats is illegal to, but not when I as a player make them to your character...

Often children who have been sexually abused will willingly continue to engage in such behavior with adults. This is because they have been mentally and emotionally damaged and they are vulnerable to predators.

And this is relevant to the discussion because...?

I believe that an adult who would have sexual contact with a minor on the internet is a pedophile and the US legal sysem agrees with me.

Actually...you can even have physical sex with a minor without being a pedophile. But that is beside the question. You are taking the discussion out of context. Sexual relations in Cantr is BETWEEN THE CHARACTERS. It has nothing to do with getting aroused as a player...

"mikki"

I, myself would not want rape added into cantr and not because of minors in a game.. I don't think it is right to force someone to do something that they do not want to do.. I have been in certain situations in which I was forced to do things...

Well, I don't think anyone thinks that rape is an ok thing to do...neither is murder. But for a society simulator to be effective I think it should include wrong and even disgusting things. There may for example be effects on society coming from rape...like soldiers raping people in occupied countries so that they give birth to their "race". Disgusting, yes. Immoral, yes...but I think we should leave it up to people in Cantr to deal with such hideous acts instead of stopping it OOC.

Neelix>

Engaging in cyber-sexual activities may or may not be illegal in Europe, I'm not sure. But what I do know is that if you commit it in Europe, with a minor in the USA, then there's a big chance they will haul your sorry ass overthere and lock you up. And if they can't get you there, there is no way you are ever going to enter the USA unpunished.

No, they won't. And claiming things like that without knowing anything about it seriously makes me wonder if you haven't just made up the actual law too. Whether it is illegal or not no government would have the resources available to go after a game like Cantr just out of principle...they don't even have the time to investigate serious pedophiles etc.

Black Canyon>

Yes...I would very much like to see a link to this. Personally I don't believe such a law exists at all...and if it does I'm still sure it wouldn't be applied in this context.

[Jetlag]

For reference, Pirog, people like me simply believe that riding rough shod over someone else's opinion is more likely to reinforce it than change it. This blame culture is upheld because people keep doing things that seem to prove it right. Nothing will ever change if you just play into their hands....

As for the "society simulator" argument, I'm not sure I agree. Cantr is missing any number of things that had major effects on how real world societies developed (weather, seasons, day and night, decay of bodies, disabilities, natural disasters, etc), so missing this one more isn't that significant. Cantr is its own world, not a clone of this one, and if it was I don't think it would be as enjoyable.

[Neelix]

No, they won't. And claiming things like that without knowing anything about it seriously makes me wonder if you haven't just made up the actual law too. Whether it is illegal or not no government would have the resources available to go after a game like Cantr just out of principle...they don't even have the time to investigate serious pedophiles etc.

Yes they will.
There have been reports of this in the newspapers and on the internet of this happening to a man from the Netherlands. These men where caught by FBI agents, posing as children on the internet.
Granted, some of these were going to the US to perhaps do the physical act there, but they were arrested when they entered the US.

And kinvoya replied the same thing independently, so don't you think there might be some truth to it?

[SekoETC]

As for the "society simulator" argument, I'm not sure I agree. Cantr is missing any number of things that had major effects on how real world societies developed (weather, seasons, day and night, decay of bodies, disabilities, natural disasters, etc), so missing this one more isn't that significant. Cantr is its own world, not a clone of this one, and if it was I don't think it would be as enjoyable.

Most of those things can be rp'd (and sex too, in all forms) so not everything has to be coded in. I've written about rain in Cantr, no matter there isn't such a thing, I've written about the stars and winds and gravel and I know others have too. And I have characters with disabilities. All things on earth cannot ever be implemented in Cantr, but the least we can do is to leave room for imagination and not give in to the people who say for example that forest is just a green area and mountain is a gray area and there are no leaves and there are no high peaks piercing the clouds.

[Lumin]

LOL, this thread was started well before I left, and it's *still* going. Must be a popular subject.

I'm not even going to get into the moral or legal issues of RPing rape (or any kind of sex for that matter); all I want to say is that I think any interaction between characters like that should be left in the realm of roleplay. (ie: I see no need for it to be handled by programmers.)

My personal view on this is that at this point in the game sex is essentially OOC anyway, (this may change when and if children get implemented but that's obviously not the case right now...) but my real point is that while things like farming, combat, etc. are automated, that's because those are all things with actual results, the "physics" or hard rules of the world, if you will. (no matter how subject to unexplained fluctuations they've been as of late...) Right now it would make much more sense to implement things like seasons, weather, or some of the other things Jetlag mentioned things that have real effects on the way the world works, before getting around to an "intercourse" project. (And even when children are implemented, who's to say that the parents even have sex? Maybe in Cantr a man and a woman just stand in the same room and hold hands or something. A project is a project; the players are the ones who determine what actual RPed action it represents.)

I mean, heck, ask ten different people to describe their characters spinning yarn; you'd probably get ten different descriptions, but the end result is still the same. :p

Edit: Just saw Seko's post. I agree that a lot of things are better unimplemented and left to RP, (that was one of the main points ofmy post) but how do you RP something like seasons? "Darn, it's summer time. No more growing root vegetables. Hope you guys have a stock of carrots somewhere or else we're all going to starve." That's what I meant by things that have real physical effects on the world. You could pretend like it's raining, but that's not going to effect the crops any, just like saying there's a hurricane or earthquake would have no effect.

[Pirog]

Jetlag>

For reference, Pirog, people like me simply believe that riding rough shod over someone else's opinion is more likely to reinforce it than change it. This blame culture is upheld because people keep doing things that seem to prove it right. Nothing will ever change if you just play into their hands....

So instead one should always worry about being sued for everyting? Man, you got to be from USA...
If the coffee the waiter spills in your lap doesn't burn you enough to sue him you can always sue him because they serve cold coffee, right?

As for the "society simulator" argument, I'm not sure I agree. Cantr is missing any number of things that had major effects on how real world societies developed (weather, seasons, day and night, decay of bodies, disabilities, natural disasters, etc), so missing this one more isn't that significant. Cantr is its own world, not a clone of this one, and if it was I don't think it would be as enjoyable.

Well, I guess we just have different perspectives on Cantr.
I would like all the examples you mentioned implemented in Cantr...

Yes they will.

No, they really won't. If USA kidnapped foreign citizens to persecute them for breaking the laws of USA there would be wild protests all over the world. Not that such protests seem to discourage the American government much, but they still wouldn't do it. If you don't know about such things you really shouldn't talk about them...because people will think that you are lying.
That they arrest peoples they suspect being pedophiles when entering USA is one thing...but to kidnap people from their homelands or keeping logs on everyone chatting with minors (which I can imagine is a huuuge number) is just ridiculous...especially when connected to Cantr, where eventual sexual conversations will be in the context of an RPG.

And kinvoya replied the same thing independently, so don't you think there might be some truth to it?

Oh, there definatelt might be...I just don't believe it. But I haven't ruled anything out. Perhaps there is some law about sexual contact with minors in USA, but I'm fairly sure it couldn't be applied to this context.
There are surprisingly few laws about such things in Europe though. In Sweden it is for example not illegal for a pedophile to take pictures of naked children on for example the beach and then use them as pornography. (A law about it is on the way though which is good.)
I also know for a fact that (unless changed recently) in USA and Europe picturs of for example nudist children are not considered pornography. So I assure you...if a law against sexual contact with minors exists it will have it's limitations and would never be applied to a game like Cantr.

[Jetlag]

Pirog, I never mentioned anything about being sued, I mentioned accusations and scapegoating. Though they are both related to the blame culture, they are not the same thing.

Imagine someone has the opinion that chatrooms are places where paedophiles hang out, and role play games are only played by the mentally disturbed. Many people fear that there might be some degree of truth in this.

Now imagine they come across an internet based roleplay game that minors play, which is essentially chat based and features lots of sex and rape. Are they going to think "Actually, it's all ok" or are they going to think "I was right!" Probably the latter, as it would seem to prove them right.

Now imagine that they come across an internet based roleplay game that minors play, which is essentially chat based and features lots of farming, mining and building societies. Which are they going to think? They may actually think that maybe they were wrong, and it's not so bad after all.

This kind of thing happened very recently with the computer game "ManHunt" One teenager killed another. It was a dreadful thing to happen, and in my opinion was due to the teenager who commited the act being a very messed up kid. One of the kids owned a copy of ManHunt, and therefore the media had a field day shouting that it was because of ManHunt, and shops across the country (and indeed the world) removed it from their shelves. ManHunt was scapegoated, and the makers lost a lot of revenue, and a lot of public good will. For all the police dismissed the game from their investigations very early on, the public's fear that such games *could* cause kids to turn violent was fed, and the blame culture got stronger.

If Cantr becomes the kind of game where rape is deemed generally acceptable roleplay, then it risks being scapegoated. If that happens, ISPs may block it, some less than reasonable people may attempt to DOS it, and Cantr will die. Whatever about what *I* think about rape in Cantr, I don't want Cantr to die.

Just for clarity, I'm not suggesting we should never have any mention of sex in Cantr, nor am I suggesting that this kind of thinking should cast a shadow over roleplaying and enjoying Cantr, I just think it is something that should be borne in mind when sensitive issues arise.