Is it really that bad?

[El_Skwidd]

and there lies the answer. cooperation. yeah, it's hard. yeah, tiredness sucks and iron materials are spread far and wide. but check out the seatown-krif region... with people like that working together, one of my characters was able to build a sloop with a crew of two other people in less than two years. people in that region have worked to make sure that things run smoothly where they live, and it makes the game better to play.

i remember it mentioned in another thread that taking on tasks that dont require so many raw resources might be wise... religions, novels, poems, all sorts of things can be made. i have a priest character right now with exactly ZERO followers, but maybe if more people concentrated less on getting a crapload of iron and being rich, there would be more of these things going on. lets have the Crusades! make a history book or something. i personally think all but three of my characters would love a history book. eh, maybe four, but out of twelve? maybe im a minority.

set up a government. it might take a while, but a nation with all the tools and the methods to produce iron can do just about anything. all you need is (in this case with tiredness) a HUGE amount of time and patience. but there's a tiredness fix coming soon. i can feel it

[Lumin]

But if you're so weak and tired you can't even muster the strength to pick up a knitting needle, how realistic is it for you to be able to devote all this energy to writing poems and novels? As long as we're shooting for realism, maybe your character shouldn't be able to write or edit notes when they're tired, and any emotes that look like they require too much effort should be considered a CR breach and reported. No loud preaching for you; the most you should be able to do is lift your head weakly once a day or so and mutter a prayer for your strength to come back soon.

[The Sociologist]

... maybe if more people concentrated less on getting a crapload of iron and being rich, there would be more of these things going on. lets have the Crusades!

But the Crusades would be so tiring!

Added in an edit: Seriously, that's precisely what my characters with a historical sensibility feel: history has come to an end. It's a hegelian thing, the "World Spirit" has ended up with its ass trapped in jello.

[mortaine]

.. (sorry, double post)

[mortaine]

OK, here's the thing. In the "real world," I'm a writer. One of the realities of being a writer is that you eventually realize that, without other people doing the hard work of providing food and shelter for you, writing-- in fact all artwork-- would never get done. Seriously; all artistic production requires someone else to take care of the messy details of life in order to happen. Art takes energy, and time, and wherewithal, and frequently results in a complete inability to deal with the real details of life. And it usually goes very much unappreciated. Can you imagine someone walking into a town and saying "I am Pedro, an artist! Someone please support me while I work my magnificent creations!" You'd be laughed out of town.

Also, Art comes from culture, which comes from all the basic experiences that we encounter, day in and day out.

Guess what happens if you try to bring even a little bit of culture from the "outside" into Cantr. Yes, the PD cracks down on you for it. It's like people expect Cantr to exist in a vacuum. I was thinking about this, and wanted to write haiku for Cantr, but since haiku as a poetry form doesn't exist in Cantr, I'm sure the PD (or, more likely, the rabid reporters to the PD-- the PD folks I've encountered myself have been very reasonable) would slap my behind for it.

You cannot have art without culture and leisure, and neither one of those is available in Cantr as it stands right now.

[kroner]

right. when society was not well devloped there wasn't really much art production. as people became more organized, they were able to support art. the potential is there in cantr for people to reach that level is they organized well enough.

in fact, there are certainly areas developed enough, and with readily available food where characters can survive just fine doing physical work less than 20% of the time. in this sort of environment people would pay for art, especially if the cost was only a bit of food, and the artist could survive without doing anything but creating art.

about the culture, the reason ooc culture is banned from ic is that it provides opportunity for culture to be developed in game. granted, this is a bit more difficult a task since the players are immersed in ooc culture, but it's still not impossible.

[swymir]

I disagree. Cantr has plenty of culture. Each city in Cantr has it's own history and style of people. Lad (well at least in it's glory days) was once a very strict town where things ran smootly. I loved that place and my other favorite city (again in it's lory days), Quillinoi, was the exact opposite with democracy ruling most everything. These two cities have distinct cultures. You can also look at the Krif-Drojf-Seatown area. I would have to say that the most culture has come out of this area although I have a tendency of having about 10 characters spawn there and 5 for the rest of the map. I think I have them fairly spaced out now. Except for two which I can't believe are still in the same town. It's starting to piss me off or at least my one character.

[mortaine]

Government is not the same as culture. Culture pervades everything and helps define how people think. Government.... usually does not.

[ephiroll]

IWe have lived parallel cantr careers Jerry, remember the first time we both were quiting? Every time you have vocalised it, I was seriously too, at the same times. I think because I'm a girl, my prides not effected as much if I don't follow through. lol.
C.

Oh, yeah, I remember now, that time I was going to quit was for entirely different reasons though, that was when I realized I was spending way to much time on Cantr. I think you're right about the pride thing too, when I say I'm going to do something I HAVE to do it, the only question is exactly when.

OK, here's the thing. In the "real world," I'm a writer. One of the realities of being a writer is that you eventually realize that, without other people doing the hard work of providing food and shelter for you, writing-- in fact all artwork-- would never get done.

It all depends on how hard you push yourself. I've been writing for just under 13 years now and there has never been a time that the only reason I had to write was because I didn't have to do anything else. In the last year I've actually been more productive then probly in any previous single year, and that is with taking care of a family, working 3 jobs, and doing dozens of other things.

i remember it mentioned in another thread that taking on tasks that dont require so many raw resources might be wise... religions, novels, poems, all sorts of things can be made.

That point has been brought up several times, thing is it makes no sense what so ever. When someone is tired they don't turn to something "less tiring" to do, they get some rest and then continue doing whatever it was they were doing to begin with. Another thing that bugs me about this "point", is that writing, drawing, carrying on a conversation require a "freash" mind, if you're so tired that you can't do something physical then more then likely you are too tired to form coherent thoughts and therefore can't do anything that requires a clear thought process.

[mortaine]

It all depends on how hard you push yourself. I've been writing for just under 13 years now and there has never been a time that the only reason I had to write was because I didn't have to do anything else. In the last year I've actually been more productive then probly in any previous single year, and that is with taking care of a family, working 3 jobs, and doing dozens of other things.

I'll bet none of your jobs included farming, mining, or hunting/bouncing. That's what I'm talking about. Cantr is a very primitive society, stuck in some weird little pre-tech world (car notwithstanding-- and I think they only exist because Jos likes cars) where everyone has to struggle for their very survival. As you pointed out, it's nearly impossible to create when you are exhausted, and yet the attitude seems to be that writing/creating is what you do when you are exhausted.

But also, how soon before any creations become CR breaches? Example: Cantrians have no sense of seasons or weather. So ALL poetry, songs, pictures that praise or even refer to the seasons or weather are pretty much out. Which is odd, because it's not like this society has much going for it besides the natural world.

The kind of poetry one can expect from Cantrians: "Lo, for the pirate did sweep into town/The way pirates sweep into every town, everywhere/To take the hard-scrabbled carrots from the ground/And steal your valuable cotton underwear."

[Agar]

The kind of poetry one can expect from Cantrians: "Lo, for the pirate did sweep into town/The way pirates sweep into every town, everywhere/To take the hard-scrabbled carrots from the ground/And steal your valuable cotton underwear."

There's a broom weilding pirate somewhere? Awesome! That's pretty good poerty, I like it.

[Neelix]

The primitive world argument is a good one. In the middle ages people worked for 14 hours a day and didn't complain. That was because it was necessary for them to work so long and they adapted to it.
I sure hope that Cantrians adapt to this fatigue stuff as well and build up some resistance to it.

And I haven't checked, but somebody must have proposed that Cantrians can do a sleeping "project" ?

[ephiroll]

It all depends on how hard you push yourself. I've been writing for just under 13 years now and there has never been a time that the only reason I had to write was because I didn't have to do anything else. In the last year I've actually been more productive then probly in any previous single year, and that is with taking care of a family, working 3 jobs, and doing dozens of other things.

I'll bet none of your jobs included farming, mining, or hunting/bouncing. That's what I'm talking about. Cantr is a very primitive society, stuck in some weird little pre-tech world (car notwithstanding-- and I think they only exist because Jos likes cars) where everyone has to struggle for their very survival.

No, they involved cooking, construction and dealing with the public all day, the things you listed aren't even very tiring unless you're a spoiled mama's boy. I grew up on a farm and I know from perssonal experiance that farming looks alot harder then it actually is, mining is indeed hardwork but I know several people that used to do it and once again it is not as hard as you seem to think and alot easy then I used to believe myself. Calling hunting/bouncing hard work is just laughable, both involve alot of sitting around doing nothing, once again I've done both of those things at one point or other in my life and talk from perssonal experiance.

As you pointed out, it's nearly impossible to create when you are exhausted, and yet the attitude seems to be that writing/creating is what you do when you are exhausted.

Which all comes back to how hard you push yourself. You are only tired becuase you allow yourself to become tired *taps side of head* up here, if you are unable to complete the things you want to then there is no one to blame but yourself, anything else is just an excuse.

[wietse]

To answer the firs question of this topic:

i am playing for 10 months now.

I think nearly all changes (tiredness, degradation of tools, secret skills) make cantr worse as a game. The programmers should think more about cantr as a game which should be fun to play instead of a 'realistic' society simulation. (asuming that is the reason for the changes). Real life is boring enough as it is, i am not playing a game to repeat the dullness of 'normal' life.

A good thing that has happendin my playing time is expanding the things you can make and increasing the steps by which you can make certain valuable materials or tools. this increasing interaction, trading and society building. Only.... This thing is new tools and materials should only be implemented when there is a use for them. Which is currently not the policy of the programming department it seems.

At the moment I don't think cantr will ever evolve into a more interesting game then it is right now, it will only decrease...

Sorry, but that's the way i feel about it. Although i of course hope i am wrong, because some of the basic ideas behind cantr are very good (that's why i am still playing)

[ephiroll]

I think nearly all changes (tiredness, degradation of tools, secret skills) make cantr worse as a game. The programmers should think more about cantr as a game which should be fun to play instead of a 'realistic' society simulation. (asuming that is the reason for the changes). Real life is boring enough as it is, i am not playing a game to repeat the dullness of 'normal' life.

Exactly.