So, what makes a successful town/character?

[Missy]

Recently there has been a few topics that explain its almost impossible to become wealthy unless you stumble upon wealth/or are passed wealth down from someone. (Some place blame on the new implementations)

So I'd like opinions on what makes a good town. What are the secrets exactly?
I have some of my own I'll post in a while, but first I'd like to see what others suggestions are. I mostly post this because (even though I only have two characters left,) I don't believe for one second that its become so hard that it's unbearable. Perhaps in light of this post some people will get some new ideas of how to help their characters achieve their goals.

[Sparkle]

In my opinion the people makes the town! I've seen towns built off of one Leader or several councilors, but they would be nothing without the ordinary civilians and average people in the land.

So basically YOU make the town. No matter how low or how high on the ladder you are, you are still very much needed by all and your town would be nothing without you!

[Nick]

So basically YOU make the town. No matter how low or how high on the ladder you are, you are still very much needed by all and your town would be nothing without you!

Yeah, thats the kinda crap we feed the low level citizens, so they think they're important.

[Sparkle]

Well, I don't. Any of my chars. who are in important positions depend alot on the average citizen. They work the land and travel to get thing for the town. I couldn't do it myself and make sure everything is ok, so they are very helpful indeed and our areas wouldn't be as developed as they are if it wasn't for these people!

[Nick]

That is true, manual labour is important. But charisma and savoir-faire are just as useful. And anyone can work...

[The Sociologist]

So I'd like opinions on what makes a good town. What are the secrets exactly?

1. Towns with characters that stay awake, especially principal characters.

That is the one single factor which overwhelms all others. Once that is established, then further factors are:

2. Towns with characters whose players are intelligent enough to establish the value of goods, such that items -especially tools- and resources may be traded.

3. Towns with characters whose players are good enough at roleplay to create cultural identities, histories, institutions and a sense of belonging. And that includes writing history notes, songs, poems, etc.

Seatown Forest succeeded at 1 and 2 but tended to fail on 3. Horrific failures on all three points have been places like Alenz Hills, where there was for years at a time little activity, no sense of rational economics, and of course no culture whatsoever. Drojf tends to fail on 2, but not really through any fault of its own. The MacGregors have the capacity to succeed on all three points, and have from time to time done so - when not hit by sleeping and deaths among their own.

Indeed the deepest character I've created to date is torn between his success at trading with MWS in Seatown Forest and his longing for certain of the cultural values of Drojf, where he spawned. One of the least successful was spawned in Alenz Hills and for a long time had no sense of belonging, no significant dreams, and no real personality at all.

The difference between Alenz Hills and Krif Hills North beggars description.

I've come to realize just how critical good roleplayers are to the game. They alone tend to import the cultural values which do make Cantr a unique experience. And I've started to worry that too much emphasis on these recent mechanistic effects places that achievement at risk.

We also have to acknowledge the extent to which challenges, upheavals and even conflicts contribute to human culture, even though that is not a particularly 20th Century viewpoint. A history which reads "Today was like yesterday and the day before" doesn't do much for culture or a sense of identity.

Cantr seems decidedly static at present.
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[rklenseth]

What I think is that in groups, the larger being more successful (most of the times), is what makes civilizations successful. In Cantr, one person can't do everything alone. Your characters have to rely on other people just as much as other people have to rely on your characters.

My oldest characters are now 23. Two already have steel weapons, four have iron shields, three more have longbows, one has a composite recurve bow, and two more have wooden shields. And for the most part the other characters that don't have weapons or protection don't really need it because they don't hunt and they don't expect a fight. So given those facts above, I would say that my first batch of characters, Sester Gartaf Romanov in particular was the first character of mine at that time to get a steel weapon and an iron shield for protection and I would say that he was probably around 25 years old at the time just a little after the Ladvicitavoi fought Naron over Naron Forest. So considering that my new characters are already now more powerful than my first characters in regard to weapons, protection, and tools I think it is a whole lot easier. And none of them just happened upon their 'wealth'.

Falkirk Michaels obtained both his longbow and iron shield from Deputy Michael Hart for doing odd work for him. He now sort of co owns a boat with a man named Captain Juniki. He is only 23 years old.

Potter Jackson joined the Clans of Olipifirovash Forest and did his initiation and has since been given a crossbow and an iron shield. He is only 22 years old.

Robert Hadden joined a small community in Xiria Forest and was given a longbow and wooden shield and currently hunts for them, cooks meat for them, has made clothing for them, and is now trying to get the tools to build cots for them. And he is only 22 years old.

Epson Drew joined the Tutonic Knights in Brunoi and became a hunter for them and began with a longbow and a wooden shield and has since been given a a sabre and an iron shield and now might soon enough get a better position in the knighthood. He is only 23 years old.

Opew Macklyn became a sheriff deputy for a community in Reniov Forest where he was given a longbow and a wooden shield. He is only 23 years old.

Sagz Greg joined a company in Akypor Forest and has since earned as payment a bunch of tools, a composite recurve bow, and an iron shield. He is only 23 years old.

[rklenseth]

So I'd like opinions on what makes a good town. What are the secrets exactly?

1. Towns with characters that stay awake, especially principal characters.

That is the one single factor which overwhelms all others. Once that is established, then further factors are:

2. Towns with characters whose players are intelligent enough to establish the value of goods, such that items -especially tools- and resources may be traded.

3. Towns with characters whose players are good enough at roleplay to create cultural identities, histories, institutions and a sense of belonging. And that includes writing history notes, songs, poems, etc.

Seatown Forest succeeded at 1 and 2 but tended to fail on 3. Horrific failures on all three points have been places like Alenz Hills, where there was for years at a time little activity, no sense of rational economics, and of course no culture whatsoever. Drojf tends to fail on 2, but not really through any fault of its own. The MacGregors have the capacity to succeed on all three points, and have from time to time done so - when not hit by sleeping and deaths among their own.

Indeed the deepest character I've created to date is torn between his success at trading with MWS in Seatown Forest and his longing for certain of the cultural values of Drojf, where he spawned. One of the least successful was spawned in Alenz Hills and for a long time had no sense of belonging, no significant dreams, and no real personality at all.

The difference between Alenz Hills and Krif Hills North beggars description.

I've come to realize just how critical good roleplayers are to the game. They alone tend to import the cultural values which do make Cantr a unique experience. And I've started to worry that too much emphasis on these recent mechanistic effects places that achievement at risk.

We also have to acknowledge the extent to which challenges, upheavals and even conflicts contribute to human culture, even though that is not a particularly 20th Century viewpoint. A history which reads "Today was like yesterday and the day before" doesn't do much for culture or a sense of identity.

Cantr seems decidedly static at present.
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I agree with you. It is much easier to create an identity for your characters when there is much history, cultural values, etc... to build them with. But it also fun to build from scratch.

I don't think things are as static as you think. It is just quiet for now because we are in a period where the most current powerful and established groups have defeated their enemies (for the most part) and groups that might come to oppose the current powers are either too weak or too fearful for their own existence to fight the current powers. But things can't stay quiet forever. And eventually the current powers will expand and run into each other especially as sea travel and sea battles become more frequent.

A lot of the pirates we saw striking a few of the regions might just be those newer groups that are building up to oppose the current powers. I know of one such group who have really mastered a new type of warfare that will take the current powers some time to counter. DoUrden Estates mastered the hit and run in small groups tatic that destroyed the Alexian Empire's Grand Army. Now pirate groups have taken that same page from DoUrden's book and are using it with ships instead and have committed devastating blows against whole civilizations. The current powers are slow to counter this with building fleets and people to fight at sea.

So I think we just entered a new era of Cantr where the big battles will be fought on the sea and the current powers begin rubbing up against each other which may result in larger regional conflicts sooner or later.

[Agar]

Falkirk Michaels obtained both his longbow and iron shield from Deputy Michael Hart for doing odd work for him. He now sort of co owns a boat with a man named Captain Juniki. He is only 23 years old.

Good luck with that. I have my own experinces with Juniki, and I know a few people in three different locations that now will kill him on sight. Pleasant voyage.

[Pirog]

A common goal is all a town need to strive for greatness.
The goal can be anything from having a peaceful society to defeating a powerful enemy...but people need a purpose to struggle.

[rklenseth]

Falkirk Michaels obtained both his longbow and iron shield from Deputy Michael Hart for doing odd work for him. He now sort of co owns a boat with a man named Captain Juniki. He is only 23 years old.

Good luck with that. I have my own experinces with Juniki, and I know a few people in three different locations that now will kill him on sight. Pleasant voyage.

Aye, one was because of Falkirk. He gave that woman that attacked them for hunting quite a surprise when he took a chunck out of her with his bow. The others were because supposedly, Juniki took some stone that someone said he could have and now one person was trying to hunt him down for it. With Falkirk around, the person will think twice before doing that. Plus, both of them have good relations with people around the Siom region so all they have to do is go to Siom and no one will touch them.

Plus if you knew Falkirk and Juniki's plans then I would say that those that have made bad impressions on them should be fearful of them returning one day.

[The Sociologist]

My oldest characters are now 23. Two already have steel weapons, four have iron shields, three more have longbows, one has a composite recurve bow, and two more have wooden shields...old.

I'm a little worried about how you characterize success here. Sure, my Deputy Sheriff obtained a community iron shield and comp. recurve bow when he was two days old, and two of my female characters received the same by age 22.

On the other hand, two characters recognized as 'local leaders' by communities of 6-10 people by age 23, and into whose activities I have put much effort, still live in the bone and stone age. And my most successful trading character, by far my wealthiest in personal terms, carries a plethora of tools but only a wooden shield and will probably never carry a weapon.

Finally, looking beyond these youngsters of ours, Taowyn wears only an iron shield but neither weapon nor special clothes. Yet what rating would people place on his "success"? What would be the fate of anyone who attacked him?

The whole point, I think, is that success takes many forms.
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[nitefyre]

I believe your three principle points tie in what is found in Cantr, and develops Sparkle's comment about the people very well. Matter of factly, I was having the discussion of this same topic in character, today, with one of my characters and another, in the KDS area.

1. Towns with characters that stay awake, especially principal characters.

We were discussing the route problem of this, that has assumedly plagued Cantr since its beginning. (Keeping players interested in characters will keep players interested in Cantr, despite their IRL excuses. If you're into it, you're gonna find a way to play it. So the more times you check your characters, or the more oppurtunities you find to check'em usually are a good judgement of how interested you are in playing your characters.) And the key to making your characters lives interesting, rest primarily with this first concern, but the depths of cantr rest accordingly in your next two points. Pirog said give them a cause, a motivation to live, and I think the motivation rests on A) what they can create for themselves that the Cantr physics is free to and B) what they can contribute back to their environments. C) Of course is that they're not interested in whatever happens around them, and that would be the countless unknowns the B type of characters would have to bury. These were the divisions that our characters had drawn during their discussion, they are either [A] motivated by greed and self wealth and fortune (Pirates/Criminals/Enterprise Builders) or by a will to help everyone else out[B] (Taowyn/Alex Valiant). However, usually, the 'average' character of Cantr that most governments depend on are a mix between A and B, they are motivated primarily by the personal widening of their power and wealth, but whilst doing so, helping out their own town.

These are the further specifications I have made, and they're borrowed from in character.

A: "These people try to hide it but I can tell that ths is their motivation - and there is nothing wrong with that but don't profess to be about the town and such when really all you want to do is inflate your own wallet. "
B: "There are so many people that love to feel that they are part of the community and helping their fellow man. For every Joram, Devon, Alicia, and Char - there is 10 people like Mandy [average worker] - completely unknown to most of the other people. They are the ones who should get the glory and spoils that the leaders attain. "
C: "My problem is keepings any of them alive - they are catch that damn sleeping sickness."

2. Towns with characters whose players are intelligent enough to establish the value of goods, such that items -especially tools- and resources may be traded.

Some of the most active characters are sometimes simply lacking in common sense. I could name a few, but I wouldn't want to hurt anyone's feelings. Two actually come to mind as I speak, one resulting in the death of one of my characters because of inaction whilst still awake, and the other, was not in my presence but brought to me by news- losing a sportscar by stepping off and letting somebody else on to trade.

3. Towns with characters whose players are good enough at roleplay to create cultural identities, histories, institutions and a sense of belonging. And that includes writing history notes, songs, poems, etc.

This third point appeals to me most, and really pushes the depths of Cantr. I try hard to push these concepts with my characters in general- however- due to the rich presence of these ideas already- my KDS main character seems to be fully saturated in poems-songs-stories-tales-and writting them himself, and more. I believe he is my most favorite character, successful in being involved in endlessly intriguing roleplay, tense situations and making Cantr a pleasure. I would also consider him a type B character, and that just goes to show, money doesn't equal happiness.

P.S.> Sociologist, I made a PM to you, and you haven't checked it yet- please check your PM box on the top of your forum browser screen.

[nitefyre]

I know of one such group who have really mastered a new type of warfare that will take the current powers some time to counter. DoUrden Estates mastered the hit and run in small groups tatic that destroyed the Alexian Empire's Grand Army. Now pirate groups have taken that same page from DoUrden's book and are using it with ships instead and have committed devastating blows against whole civilizations. So I think we just entered a new era of Cantr where the big battles will be fought on the sea...

In response to another one of my character's discovery of docking ship to ship, back a while ago when it was implemented, one of his friends commented:

"Maybe people will one day discover how to make
ship docking better. I bet a whole sailing culture could grow from it, don`t you? Like ships could meet up, compare where they`re going, and decide to sail with each other if they`re going in the same direction. That would allow sailors to make travelling friends, and there`d be more people to fend off people who dock for evil purposes. Maybe there`d even be sailor reunions every so often, where lots of boats
who`ve already become friends could meet up and trade, share tales, introduce new sailors, have parties, everything."

I found it interesting to share the In character dreaming of this sea culture (small IC story), and how it compares and contrasts with our OOC thinking, or rather, RKL's:

"It was one of those days, the ones that laid before your eyes, foretelling with strong breezes a storm to come. Winds swiftly blew all that could not be stowed from the deck, smashing them along the hull`s sides. Both port and starboard sides of the deck were scratched, leaving not a trace of the thorough scrubbing it had received not more a few than hours ago. In lieu of it all, I stood there in await of Hayden who had taken the leisure of scanning the market on the center Soarer, that housed
the huge Allegiance Outpost. This Soarer donated from the Allegiance's Olipirifovash founder stood tall above all others, adequately being the center stone of the city, to which the large rakers docked to. Our darter was a sturdy ship of now a little over 200 days, calmly swayed in the soon to be calamic waves, connected to the outer ring of longboats that housed the sailors of the city who worked on the larger Rakers and
Soarer. There were at least a dozen ships, and a dozen marine guilds. Shouts came from the distance, and my ears rose in worry. They became louder, kidnapping the simple silence that had reigned so peacefully. Hayden lept aboard, her broad sword bloodied, and she screamed to me, shaking me from my sudden shock, "Pirates! Thomas
man the helm." Without an aye of agreement, I equiped my crossbow as she cut the ropes that docked us to a longboat. Some hunting bow and war bow arrows landed along the port vulnerable side of the ship. I sent our ship off to the starboard direction of the South, to let her be free with the sea. The blood sprayed, soaked and slid off the side of the longboats; we, the ones tasked with the security of this Outpost that had no natural resource except able sailors and capable ships, were the lucky ones. And we were gonna need that luck, as we took on our vows to the Allegiance
Outpost, and revenge this day of infamy."

Considering how Sea battles could be waged at sea, why could Sea ports and Sea cities not be erected as well, my character with another, questioned hundreds of days ago. What I believe we lack, is a full understanding of the docking system, and which boats can dock to which, but soon enough, if efforts are compiled- it's very much possible.

But, is it necessary? Maybe military outposts at sea, first, based on large ships and patrol boats tied alongside.

Now, in response to your comments about land strategy, I think a small-close-knit organization can do much better than the

What I think is that in groups, the larger being more successful (most of the times), is what makes civilizations successful.

that you referred to earlier. The answer could be better found within your comments about how Alenz Hills was successful with "hit and run in small groups."

[The Industriallist]

I would say there are three questions, really.

Creating societies seems to be the domain of small, committed, cohesive, and active groups, often 'companies' 'clans' or occasionally 'governments'. They draw in flocks of class 2 sheep (the kind who work loyally forever for a little advance payment, weapon and shield, and an endless stream of tasks) to build up iron and steel, and their top people eventually become the leaders of the society that grows around them. I don't know if anyone is still doing this, though I think it's still possible...just much harder. Most of the existing groups got though this phase when iron came straight out of the ground.

Sustaining societies calls mostly for a handful of highly active characters willing to put up with the endless garbage work of keeping the people convinced that the government is working for them. This is usually less than accurate, since most governments don't actually give much to their populous. They also attract flocks of sheep...but sheep of any kind aren't much help at this point, because you can run a government with three active people just as well as one with three active people and 5 witless, sleepy peasants digging stone and such for the greater glory. To keep a society running and productive you need to build up the core of trusted, active and efficient characters who do the meaningful work.

Succeeding with your character...assuming you aspire to wealth and/or power, you've got a few options. You can try starting a new society/organization...which is tricky with the changes and the need of recruiting both sheep and real allies. Or you can join a growing organization in the leadership/operations class. This may be a direct move, or it may be by playing sheep and showing activity and capability. This'll get you power, top of the line weapons and protection, and a shot at the top. Or a chance to cut and run with some serious loot, if you think that way.

Trade is seldom effective or useful, since it can only occur among the select effectives of organizations...and it's cheaper to send a bunch of sheep to collect a resource than 1-2 real people to arrange a deal.

Maybe it's just me...but I've never really cared for Cantr culture. At least not in its more showy forms, like the singing and books and such of the KDS region. All it does for me is annoy. All active characters are needed to drive things forward...not write poor prose and broadcast weak verse. It just doesn't deal with any problems that actually exist.