The rules of cantr.

[wietse]

I noticed myself and several other people really getting frustrated because there is no explanation on the game system of cantr anywhere. You have to find everything out in game, even the game rules and what every button does. The game masters seem to think this is a good thing and things work intuitive. I wondered how other people think about this. ( In know several people who didnt bother to try to play/quit the game because of this)

[Pirog]

I voted for explain everything, but that would in my view not include the numbers behind game mechanics like skills etc, but it would explain the basics on how to improve skills for example.

The reason for this is that the logic you are supposed to use in Cantr to find these things out isn't enough. What seems like the obvious way to do something by the programmers might seem very unnatural for a player.

Regarding tools I find the idea of having to "invent" them by building them is unrealistic. People who compare it with real life does so by taking examples of inventors and scientists, where useful items and ideas are often found by pure chance while researching something else. But the people of Cantr aren't little scientists. If a farmer wants to dig in his field there is no chance that he would accidently build himself a cotton gin while trying to make a shovel.

Secondly, most people who have invented an item with one of his characters won't bother to go through the process of building things you don't need just to find out what they do with all their other characters...and this leaves the older players at an advantage towards the newer players. (and you can often just go past this idea by googling the item name to find out what it does IRL.)

Even here the ideas of the programmers become a limitation, since the ways of solving problems that they have implemented are rarely the only way. Take the curing tub for example. Curing tubs are in now way the only method of turning hide into leather (and I don't believe that's the case in Cantr either anymore) and a lot of people thought that the curing tub would be some kind of medical equipment when they built it. (Perhaps watching too much Star Wars?)

I also believe (and know) that the lack of explanations make a lot of people give up on the game before learning the systems. Since I often advertize for Cantr on other forums I see a lot of replies saying that people either give up because it is confusing or because "a game that ugly can't possibly be funny"
The last category we can probably do without, since they probably wouldn't be good RPers anyway, but even I was close to dropping out of the game in the beginning since I just didn't understand what it did. I found Cantr by chance, so noone had told me that it was a great game...and thus my tolerance for trying it was very limited. I'm glad I stayed though because I have found that I spend more time playing Cantr than I put on bought games like GTA San Andreas or Civilization

[Esteis]

I'm a go-in-off-the-deep-end sort of person, so I didn't have much trouble figuring things out; but I'd still have appreciated some button explanations -- with pictures of what they look like, since the general explanation lacks those.

What I'd also like is a description of specific things you shouldn't do — a character of mine caught a cold, and I had to be told OOC that that wasn't allowed (it's already taken care of by in-game mechanisms, apparently), which left me feeling
(1) guilty (a bit, for ruining others' game experience, by forcing them to go OOC), and
(2) wondering where I could have found it. It was neither in the 'description& background' nor in the Newbie guide, and I don't think the forum should be a 'readme', it should be an FAQ.
On the other hand, this specific example could just as easily become a spoiler, which is *not* what we want. So if such rules were laid out, they would probably have to take the following form:
'Just don't do this. There's a reason but we're not telling because we don't want to ruin the game for you.
(Unless you *want* a spoiler, in which case, click [[here]].)'

Well, that was my 2/100's worth... I'm not sure if it's a good plan or not, but it would certainly prevent some newbies from feeling caught out like I did.

[rklenseth]

I'm a go-in-off-the-deep-end sort of person, so I didn't have much trouble figuring things out; but I'd still have appreciated some button explanations -- with pictures of what they look like, since the general explanation lacks those.

What I'd also like is a description of specific things you shouldn't do — a character of mine caught a cold, and I had to be told OOC that that wasn't allowed (it's already taken care of by in-game mechanisms, apparently), which left me feeling
(1) guilty (a bit, for ruining others' game experience, by forcing them to go OOC), and
(2) wondering where I could have found it. It was neither in the 'description& background' nor in the Newbie guide, and I don't think the forum should be a 'readme', it should be an FAQ.
On the other hand, this specific example could just as easily become a spoiler, which is *not* what we want. So if such rules were laid out, they would probably have to take the following form:
'Just don't do this. There's a reason but we're not telling because we don't want to ruin the game for you.
(Unless you *want* a spoiler, in which case, click [[here]].)'

Well, that was my 2/100's worth... I'm not sure if it's a good plan or not, but it would certainly prevent some newbies from feeling caught out like I did.

I don't think that person was right in telling you that at all as you did not break or even stretch the Capital Rule. Just because diseases have been programmed doesn't mean that characters can still pretend to have diseases or even be mentally disturbed as in being a hyperchondriac (SP?) in which case the person believes they are sick and often times actually believe so much that they actually show symptoms of disease they believe they have. And since mental disorders cannot be programmed and must be role played then I don't see that ruling from the Player's Department as being correct. Your character can also pretend to be sick to deceive other characters in game for whatever reason they want.

[rklenseth]

Now on to the point of this topic;

The Capital Rule is pretty well stated on the pages that explain the game. I don't understand what else you need. I think what you guys are looking for is a case by case explanation of the Capital Rule which will never be possible. There is one problem in regard to the Capital Rule in that there are two types of characters in game. There are players (like me) who believe your character can only know things through learning and experience in game and not from what you know or learn OOCingly or from another character. And then there are pkayers who believe their characters should know everything from how a hammer is used to how a complicated machine like a car engine works automatically even if the society they are in have never seen one or heard of one. The Player's Department has taken a drawn a pretty broad line in this regard for reasons unknown to me but in my interpretation of the Capital Rule any use of OOC knowledge used to better advantage your character in game (or really for any reason) is a Capital Rule offense. For example, if your character has never seen a car, heard of a car, read about a car, etc... then how the hell would they know what a car is or what it does. Just because it is on the list of things to build doesn't mean your character automatically know what it is or what it is used for.

The mechanics of the game should never be known by the players. This will allow people to abuse the system and use stats to their advantage like they do in most RPGs where they try to create the strongest superhuman character alive. But there are more realistic reasons why stats and such are hidden. In real life, do we truly know how our bodies work and skillful we are in things? No, except with experimentation by doing things and finding out I suck at this or I'm good at this, or by practicing a thing and hopefully becoming better at it. If stats are available people will see what they can get good at as well as see what they are good at and what they are not so now players rather than experimenting and finding out their character's potential through results will simply say I suck at this so I won't do that or I'm good at that so I'll do that.

The buttons in the game perhaps could use an explanation but you can put your cursor over a button and find out what it does or where it links to. But really the only reason why a guide hasn't been done yet is because no one has written one. You have to remember that staff members are purely volunteers and have a real life to attend to as well as are doing other things for Cantr.

If someone wants to write a guide on what the buttons do for Cantr and maybe some other useful information for Newbies as well as keep it updated then I'm sure they are welcome to do this. Just write it and submit it to the Game Administration Council for approval and Jos will probably put it somewhere easily accessible for Newbies.

[Oasis]

And since mental disorders cannot be programmed and must be role played then I don't see that ruling from the Player's Department as being correct

This has not been so ruled by the Players Department. Mental illnes, being crazy......that is all allowed.

The player who spoke OOC'ly to Esteis's was not a member of the PD, as far as I'm aware. The PD has not discussed this issue, as diseases, for the most part, have not yet been introduced in game. Once they are, that will be a different story. I think we can guess what the determination will be then.

This was a tricky situation......is it okay or isn't it? The general rule is that if something has not been programmed in yet, it's okay to rp it. (ailments, other concepts) Example.....a back ache, a headache. Fine to rp. But now that some symtoms are being introduced, something like a cold is perhaps becoming off limits. Though many players might not even know this is happening, so I even hate to mention it here, and you certainly can't fault them for rp'ing something we are keeping hushed.

I must say, a member of the PD would not have informed the player of her rp mistake in the manner that it was. Whenever possible, we prefer to do that my pm, keeping it out of the game entirely. So when you see something like this, don't assume it's the PD. We encourage all players who are confused or need a question answered to email us at players@cantr.net. Or pm one of us. (You can find the member list under "usergroups".

So as not to mislead anyone, as far as rp'ing objects, or making mention of anything concrete like that which has not yet been programmed in, but which can be, should not be referred to. Example.....you can't rp ringing a bell, because they don't exist in Cantr, though they very well could. You should also avoid saying something like "that rings a bell" because there's no basis for the saying in Cantr. One should not say someone smells like a rose, if their char has never seen a rose or know that they exist.

[Oasis]

If someone wants to write a guide on what the buttons do for Cantr and maybe some other useful information for Newbies as well as keep it updated then I'm sure they are welcome to do this. Just write it and submit it to the Game Administration Council for approval and Jos will probably put it somewhere easily accessible for Newbies.

We do have a Cantr FAQ sheet, thanks to Anthony. It can be found at
http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3488, which is in General Support.

Perhaps there should be a link on the login page to this. (put it in the same list with the other yellow links, right under "Description and background", as it is much more thorough than anything in that section. Though the Capital Rule is very well explained in the Newbie Guide, which is accessed through here.

[The Industriallist]

Now on to the point of this topic;

The Capital Rule is pretty well stated on the pages that explain the game. I don't understand what else you need. I think what you guys are looking for is a case by case explanation of the Capital Rule which will never be possible. There is one problem in regard to the Capital Rule in that there are two types of characters in game. There are players (like me) who believe your character can only know things through learning and experience in game and not from what you know or learn OOCingly or from another character. And then there are pkayers who believe their characters should know everything from how a hammer is used to how a complicated machine like a car engine works automatically even if the society they are in have never seen one or heard of one. The Player's Department has taken a drawn a pretty broad line in this regard for reasons unknown to me but in my interpretation of the Capital Rule any use of OOC knowledge used to better advantage your character in game (or really for any reason) is a Capital Rule offense. For example, if your character has never seen a car, heard of a car, read about a car, etc... then how the hell would they know what a car is or what it does. Just because it is on the list of things to build doesn't mean your character automatically know what it is or what it is used for.

There are so very many flaws in that...

Firstly, the origin flaw. If no one knows how to make a car engine until they see one, where did the first one come from? Or for that matter the first stone hammer?

Secondly, the naming flaw. I know I can't, and will not believe if you claim you can, totally ignore the RL-derived names given to things. I know carrots are more likely to be edible than stone. I know an oven is used to cook. I can tell (now that the Wheel of Time names were explained here) which vehicles are ships and which are for land travel. Sure, I can pretend not to know. But then I have to 'guess', and what do I do? Deliberately pick all the wrong things? I know I won't do that unless someone actually says it's the right thing to do. And I have a suspicion that you don't either.

Third: the incomprehensable world flaw. By logical extension, your character also shouldn't know what roads are for, let alone that they lead to other places. Shouldn't know how to knock on a door, let alone guess what a knock on a door might mean. Shouldn't be able to read notes, let alone know that they ought to. Probably shouldn't even speak or understand any language.

My point is that Cantr does, in fact, both have and need a basic OOC (or automatically IC) knowledge base. Whatever it turns out to be I can probably work with it. But no one with any authority has offered word as to what it actually IS, except by process of indicating that this or that isn't in it. Your proposal that it be the empty set is quite evidently not their intention, however.

[Pirog]

And Cantr is a much too slow game to learn things simply by education and experience, like in real life.
Teaching a child how to talk in a realistic manner in Cantr would take much longer than doing the same IRL.

[formerly known as hf]

It seems like there is quite a bit of 'grey' area in the CR - as in how much inate IC charcter knowledge there is - or how much simple OOC knowledge you can use as a base.

I think it's good like that - it means it can accomodate both views - those that want to try digging hematite to eat - can do so - those that want to assume that a 20 year old has a basic grasp of some of the fundamental things (what's edible, what simple toools and machines do) can do so also - it alows people to RP the way they feel most comfortable to.

The CR comes into play when it should - when people start abusing OOC knowledge and acitivities for an unfair advantage...

[Oasis]

Well put, farmer who sees things that aren't really there.

I may well have my first char (if I was starting all over) eat some hematite to see if it's edible or not. But it would become rather droll to have the other 14 do the same thing.

Personally, I try to have most of my chars not know what the more advanced machines are for, even if I as a player have learned this already. But with the more basic things, I agree. There has to be some innate knowledge base they've accumulated in their first 20 yrs of life, so they know what a hammer is for, and that carrots are for eating, not for sweeping a floor.

[Pirog]

I have for example decided that one of my characters find it confusing to navigate (even if he would benifit much from knowing it) but I see that as seperate from the idea of not knowing how things work. Because practically noone in Cantr would have enough time or patience to teach or learn things in a manner resembling real life...

[Nick]

that carrots are for eating, not for sweeping a floor.

But if I grew up in a town with all potatoes, and moved to a new town with carrots, how would I have innate knowledge that they are food, as well?

And call me a breacher, but if I see bananas for the first time with a character, and I am low on strength, I am going to start gathering bananas, and not bother checking out what silk cocoons are.

This topic seems to point to only one conclusion; a list of innate knowledge you can have, or at least more specific rules regarding it.

[kroner]

Yeah. All we ask for is an official and concrete list:

The following pieces of information characters are allowed (and therefore expected) to know at spawning:
-
-
-

The following pieces of information characters are not allowed to know at spawning and must learn in game:
-
-
-

That's all. Very simple. We don't need to know what this one character once decided to know or what specific people like to rp they know. We just need this list.

[The Industriallist]

The following pieces of information characters are allowed (and therefore expected) to know at spawning:

Well, I wouldn't say expected...the right to have your character ignorant should be protected.

Other than that I agree exactly with kroner.

I may well have my first char (if I was starting all over) eat some hematite to see if it's edible or not. But it would become rather droll to have the other 14 do the same thing.

Say what? Make your first character more ignorant than your subsequent characters, just because it's your first character?