Skills

[The Industriallist]

Cantr IS a RPG...nobody can hide from that fact. But even RPG's have a long tradition of determining skills etc. randomly, like the paper & pen game where you rolled the die for your strength, intelligence etc.

Real bad example, if you mean D&D...but that's a definite tangent.

Regard it as unusually reallistic RPG or society simulator, you certainly shouldn't have choice of what starting skills you get. I think most of us agree with that...and I'm pretty sure Jos does, which is a trump card anyway.

[Missy]

First you all complain about the weapons, and why you're not hitting as effectively as was once before. Then you complain you are never told enough information. Then something that was supposed to have been secret has been revealed to appeas you all and your whining, and now you're still not happy!

You don't think of things in the real world as skills mostly. You want to do something, and you do it. If you're not good at it, you practice. There is only a "list" of things that will help you become better at something because people before us in the real world, have learned what it is. They weren't "told." in the beginning of time "what will make me a better hunter" It came with trial and error. The same should be true for our society in cantr as well. Your characters would have to figure out what makes them better at hunting, what doen't, and then pass the info along.

Thats how I see it.

[The Industriallist]

After all, IRL, you couldn't be sure if the ability to hit a deer with an arrow applied to trying to hit a person...

Nor could you tell whether the same skills applied to spear, sword, and bow use...

The thing is that you could make reasonable inferences from looking at reality. But you can't 'look at' cantr in the same way. In any given aspect it may follow reality, or it may follow convenience or balance (or sometimes a mixed-up view of reality). So there are at least two or three logical guesses about what applies to what.

(I don't mean this as an escalation beyond my previous position on the degree of need for such information. I just had to counterattack.)

[Pürkel]

You're missing the fact that Cantr is not RL, it's a game. The big difference is that RL you live 24h per day, and you interact with it with 5 senses, whereas with Cantr you play 200 minutes per day (at the most) and interact with 1 sense (seeing).
So the idea that we have to figure out our skills and how to improve them in-game I find "a bit" absurd. As a matter of fact, everything that is the "engine" of the game. There is just not enough time and information for out brains to extract the kind of fuzzy knowledge that Jos envisions.
I think that in a game, any game, not just Cantr, because of the limitation of the simulation, you actually need big numbers above your head in order to make the most of it. Or at least a small documentation on the game mechanics.

[Pirog]

Missy>

But there is a huge difference between Cantr and the real world. IRL I can train to improve my skills in any number of ways, and I always understand if what I do makes me better or not. I can also see, with no effort at all, if the people working next to me is doing a better or worse job compared to me.

In Cantr you only have the ways that the programmers have included, and although it can seem perfectly logical and reasonable for them that doesn't have to be the perspective for others.

Take the combat skill for example. I think it shoud be obvious than 0 % dmage attacks would improve the combats skill, counting like you are training with the one you hit. Someone else might think 0 % damage attacks are simply there to threaten someone and that you would have to attack with at least 10 % damage to improve. IRL it would be a no brainer to find out who was right, but in Cantr it isn't...and therefore people could spend 10+ years training with 0 % damage attacks without improving at all.

When considering how slow the game is, that you have set amount of time that the active players allready often run out of, it will be very hard to sit and calculate these things by keeping track of your characters...writing down information on notes etc.

With the policy you have that even people who only play for a short amount of time everyday these devoted (and mathematically skilled) players who will spend a lot of time will improve the most. Is that really the way you want the game to be played?

I don't see this as whining by the way...I'm simply trying to help you improve the game by giving you constructive criticism.

[Missy]

I just don't see it. I can't think of any reason why I should know how skills work/what skills there are. I don't want to see things popping up in game where people in a certain town for instance say "If you want to get good at doing this, you should start with this"--When the characters themselves haven't gone through the process to know that. It's unrealistic to me. Especially since those characters only know that because of you.
What I want to see is characters actually learn what makes someone good at something, and then pass the info along.

That's what it comes down to. I don't think that people who don't have much time to play cantr all day will suffer for not knowing, since there are plenty people who will figure it out IC and pass the info along, IC. You don't need to take notes. If you know anything at all about your character you'll recognize "Well he hit that person pretty hard, then he hit the other not so hard, and then he hit an animal" Whats the result? It doesn't take numbers/specifics to figure it all out. Just a knowledge of your character and what she/he has been doing.

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(It sounds like whining. You want something and "some" people will make up three thousand reasons for needing to know more about skills.)

Maybe I just see it as whining, because Im so sick of the unsatisfaction. People suggest they want all this stuff and now that it's here in any way shape or form, its not good enough.

Or maybe I see it as whining, because although I have a preference as to how babies should be implemented, I'd be damn happy just to have them. And as for skills/health-drunkenness-dirtyness I didn't have much of an interest in these things as well as I do other things, but am glad to see them there none-the-less.

[Pirog]

Missy>

I don't see how you can not see it. Take gathering stone for example. I don't know if a skill may improve it, and if there is a skill for it I don't know if getting better would mean gathering more resources for less time or that you just don't get as tired from gathering stone as others do.

IRL I would know this without even trying. In Cantr it is a hell of a big time consuming project to monitor my character to see differences, if he gets better, more tired etc. Not to mention all that work is for simply ONE of my 15 characters.

Surely you must see the problem?

That's what it comes down to. I don't think that people who don't have much time to play cantr all day will suffer for not knowing, since there are plenty people who will figure it out IC and pass the info along, IC.

But the figuring out part will most like be done OOC, by people good at these kinds of things will be a lot quicker in figuring out than people just happening to see a pattern while they play.
So if they will decide to share that information IC (and many will probably chose not to, since they will benifit from being better than others) it will only come down to pure luck if you happen to be in the same town as someone who shares that information...and that is hardly realistic.
We are not saying that we have to know exactly how you get better and so on...simply the basics that would be obvious in a RL scenario.

(It sounds like whining. You want something and "some" people will make up three thousand reasons for needing to know more about skills.)

Well, the perhaps you need to improve on how you react to constructive critiscism. We all have, at least in our minds, good arguments for wanting a change. I'm sure Cantr will benifit a lot from listening to the players, even if I of course support your right not to follow our wishes.

And I want to make it clear that I think these changes are great!
A skill system, the different bars marking your needs etc will all take the game to a whole new level...but there seems to be room for a lot of improvement to make the functions even better, that is all.

[1959 Apache]

I'm sorry, but I can't see how a character suddenly may be bad at what they have been doing all of their life, thanks to an arbitrary random equation, characters are given skills, or lack of them. I find this completely bogus.

I also take issue with the total change of how the game works. What happened to the 'game that is designed to be played in as little as ten minutes per day'? I have a busy life, and have limited time to play. In that time, my eight characters are a handful to keep up with, especially with the server lag. Now, I will have to take the time to have eight characters individually learn how to live all over again? It will be nearly impossible to avoid breaking the CR. You might as well shitcan it.

Any character who is in a position of running a business has an even more daunting task. Trying to figure what things cost, since everything now depends on unknowns. How long do you think it will take to decipher all of the nuances of these changes, so as to attempt to run a stable business. It is said that trade is being promoted by some of the changes. I say this radical change destroys any current trade base, and sends the entire economic development into utter turmoil.

As it stands now, the best profession to go into is thievery. Since it now is harder to kill someone, a thief has little to worry about. Look for even more annoying steal and run characters. The game is now catering to them.

Am I ranting, you bet! I have lost most of my interest in the game. I can't believe what is happening. I can see that I will be spending less time playing. Anyone want to buy some minutes?

[Nick]

Cantr is a society simulator, not a role-playing game

Exactly

Anyone here know if they would be good or not at going and collecting hematite? I know I sure do not know how much hematite I can collect in a day with my hands, or if I am better than anyone at it.

[Pirog]

Anyone here know if they would be good or not at going and collecting hematite? I know I sure do not know how much hematite I can collect in a day with my hands, or if I am better than anyone at it.

No, and you shouldn't know what you are good at in Cantr either until you try to find out.

But as in real life you would notice these things in a short time if you start digging for hematite...and you would quickly learn how you could improve your work.
In Cantr it may take a life time, since you have to figure out the exact method the programmers want you to use, instead of letting your creativity work.

[kinvoya]

Well, I'm not particularly good with mathematics but I've made some very simple and non-time consuming notes about my chars activities and already learned a lot in one day.

I was very upset about the changes at first because they seemed so chaotic and arbitrary but now that I know there are skills involved I can pretty much figure out what is going on.

I think I'm going to enjoy the challenge of finding out what my chars are good at or not.

Maybe some will never discover their hidden talents. Some of them may have a mid-life change of occupation or maybe not be as prosperous as they though they were going to be. Some may freak out all together.

Hey, that's life! We all get hit with the unexpected in RL and in Cantr and we deal or not.

[rklenseth]

All right a few points here.

I mostly agree with Missy. Your characters shouldn't see what skills there are or how they work because as in real life we can't see what we are good or bad at until we have gone and done it and as in real life we can't suddenly know if we can get better at it. The only way to find out if you can get better at it is to continue working at it and seeing if there is any improvements.

One of the things that Jos didn't want to turn this simulator/rpg into was where a player can do simple mathematical equations and master the game. He wanted it to be random with some uniformity like it is in real life. Jos didn't want a player saying my character needs this, this and this and he'll be the best stone digger in the Quillanoi. You can see how the game can be abused that way. We saw it back before random damage where people with sabres/crossbows and iron shields could easily in a group of three take out a whole town of 30 people armed with hunting bow/war bows and wooden shields. Now with tiredness, it'll be much harder for three people to take out a whole town and easier for that town of 30 to repel such attacks. Now people also have to be good at combat.

In Cantr we are trying to make it as realistic as real life as we can get. It will mean that major changes will occurr. I have been playing for over two years and I think Missy can say the same since we started around the same time, Cantr was a totally different game. In fact, back then it was all about the numbers. If you had three people then you could build a house in 10 days. If you had three people with sabres then you could easily take out anyone protected with a wooden shield or less.

Since I started playing Cantr two years ago;

1. Everything was on one page. No links to inventory, objects, people, area information.
2. No knocking.
3. No random damage from weapons, or missing, or random blocking of damage or not blocking entirely.
4. Take the current tools list and imagine that as all the objects we could build which included our weapons, protection, machinery, ect..
5. Raw steel and iron could be extracted from the ground.
6. There were only two continents.
7. Everyone knew each other; no dynamic naming of characters nor could anyone change names.
8. When people died inside a building everything including the body ended up outside.
9. No dragging.
10. No objects broken down into parts.
11. No animals.
12. No clothing.
13. No character descriptions.
14. When you were traveling there wasn't a map to show where your character was on the path. There were maps when you were at a location.
15. No ages. Years hadn't been introduced yet to Cantr. Everyone was ageless.
16. Obviously, no skill system or new system of damage, hunger, etc...
17. No time limit.
18. Time only consisted of there being the day (turn) and the hour (sub-turn) ex. 230-2.

There are probably more changes that I haven't thought about but you can see that a lot has been done in Cantr some major changes in the past two years that I have played.

I remember when dynamic naming and the time limit as introduced and many people said at the time that those things would ruin Cantr but as you can see it hasn't yet.

Come on, guys. Give the system some time to be fleshed out and see how it works. I am sure it ain't perfect but it is a step in the right direction.

And rather than saying it is dumb and that it will destroy Cantr, actually play with it for a bit and then give some structured critism as to how to make it better.

[Pirog]

I don't think this will destroy the game at all...in time it will probably make it a great deal better...but I do disagree with your arguments about this being similar to real life or not benifiting the number crunchers.

You must understand that in real life you have a lot of different options on how to do things, but in Cantr you are locked to the way the programmers have constructed the system. That is of huge importance. IRL you have probably hundreds or more ways to become a better stone digger, but here you have to figure it out mathematically.
(This is by the way the one thing that differes Cantr the most from other RPGs, since it isn't as free as RPGs usually are)

So while you are saying that this will make Cantr less about trying to count things out mathematically I believe it will be the opposite.

For example, how can it be realistic that you don't know if there is a combat skill for all weapons or individual skills for different types of weapons, or even all weapons?`
IRL it would be clear for anyone that although you are a great shot with a pistol you might not be as impressive with a sword...in Cantr you can't apply that logic, since matters like the programmers time to sit with the system or the servers ability to take care of such things may limit how advanced the combat skill is.

[rklenseth]

I don't think this will destroy the game at all...in time it will probably make it a great deal better...but I do disagree with your arguments about this being similar to real life or not benifiting the number crunchers.

You must understand that in real life you have a lot of different options on how to do things, but in Cantr you are locked to the way the programmers have constructed the system. That is of huge importance. IRL you have probably hundreds or more ways to become a better stone digger, but here you have to figure it out mathematically.
(This is by the way the one thing that differes Cantr the most from other RPGs, since it isn't as free as RPGs usually are)

So while you are saying that this will make Cantr less about trying to count things out mathematically I believe it will be the opposite.

How so? If the skills are kept hidden and the way they work kept hidden as well then it would be impossible for someone to figure it out mathematically especially if Jos has thrown some random diviations into the mix. There may be more than one way to become better at something, we don't know because we don't know how the system works but we can get good idea by having our characters do things like digging for stone and seeing if they get better at it.

Lets say there is a digging skill as well as a strength stat all of which could be used to determine how good at digging you are. You also have to add in tiredeness and damage levels. Then add in random diviation plus or minus 20%. Lets say that Jos has made it random as far as improving skills. Perhaps one time you get better at it but the next time you don't. I don't think it would be possible for someone to calculate all of that considering most of it is hidden to us and then properly guess the random diviation.

This is also the beginning of the skill system so in time we can add to it (or subtract) and make it better. I think we all need to allow the new system to be fleshed out before we can say it doesn't work or even give it constructive cricitism. A few days isn't enough time to see how it will affect Cantr. I'll at least give it a month before I begin suggesting ideas. Mainly because I don't know how it works or how it will affect Cantr. I have a pretty good idea but I was one of those people that said that the sky was falling when the time limit was introduced and I was wrong about that.

[Pirog]

Trust me, people will sooner or later find out. They might not find out enough to know exactly know how to improve at a maximal rate, but they will find out enough to get a levarage over others.

There may be more than one way to become better at something, we don't know because we don't know how the system works but we can get good idea by having our characters do things like digging for stone and seeing if they get better at it.

Exactly, the point being that you can't apply common sense to see how you would improve yourself...it is all up to how the programmers have decided to do it. Since I don't know if the possibility to get better happens every day or after several years, so it will also be very hard to figure out naturally when you improve in something.

This is also the beginning of the skill system so in time we can add to it (or subtract) and make it better. I think we all need to allow the new system to be fleshed out before we can say it doesn't work or even give it constructive cricitism.

It never hurts to give constructive criticism.
The fact that I may ask for things that are allready in effect doesn't really matter...

But I'm sure that the skill system will make the game a hell of a lot better...I just want a fair chance at knowing how to improve at the same level as the number crunchers. (And I'm not saying that they will get a huge advantage, I'm just saying that from my perspective it seems like a big risk for it.)