Pirog vs. The Industriallist (Interference welcome)

[The Industriallist]

Since out debates have been rambling across a number of topics that didn't really need them, I'm going to try to keep us restricted to this small area in the off-topic forum. If anyone wants to break in on the arguement, please do so...

This follows directly from:here

You ought to read what I say. I specifically said I don't have my goals worked out for life. My characters tend not to either, at least not entirely. But short term goals certainly happen.

For reference, I don't think life means anything, really. Or it means what you want it to (as in cantr). They're really the same thing.

That doesn't mean efficiency is any less good. It just has to be efficiency towards your actual goals, whatever they are, not toward something else that you don't really care about. If making money is outside your main interests, that's fine...I think it's outside mine as well.

As for my characters (there are 8 alive)...my most powerful had no ambition. At all. He became powerful by the OOC reason of not dying of the 'sleeping sickness', no effort on his part was involved. Probably will grow some ambition now that he's got responsibilities.

One of my characters is devoted to an inherently unprofitable task...has developed some power as a result, perhaps, but not the usual sort.

Next down the list...very materially motivated, yes. Though he does have deeper reasons for that. The new changes that are effecting combat may help him or doom him...I can't tell which yet. (I won't say what his business is)

Moving down the list...my next is materially ambitious, but he certainly has (many) limits and other concerns. Is in business, though.

Next: Used to be exceedingly, near-exclusively greed-motivated. Now is in a psychologically interesting place...I can't go into any details here.

My next one has a lot of interests...one of my powerful ones, had to make an effort to get power, but his motivations for getting power have nothing to do with greed...even his motivations for being in business are only partly related to the profit he might get.

Next one...merchant, so somewhat profit-driven. Very honest, though. Material aspirations are mostly staying alive and getting a nicer ship and personal arsenal. Beyond that, goods just pile up on the deck and slow you down. Not that he's anywhere near the point of not wanting more stuff yet.

My last is a bit undeveloped. Unlike the others, so far he really is driven to aim for power and/or wealth foremost. But that could change pretty easily...he's only a couple years in this world.

[Pirog]

Haha...wait a minute. This feels a lot like you have the opinion that this is more than an argument and have taken offense to things I have "said".

If that is the case we can simply drop it

[SekoETC]

Nah, get back to the ring! I still haven't decided which one of you I hate more.

[Chrissy]

What's the initial arguement about out of curiosity? Did Pirog try to say your characters are crappy?

p.s. I apologize Pirog, I just noticed you said drop it. I'm still curious though.

C.

[The Industriallist]

We can't really drop it...we could drop it now, but something close will come up in a week or two at most on another topic. This way there's some place to boot them to when they abandon the actual topic they started in.

As for personal offense...a little, but mostly I'm bothered that you used arguements that I'd already refuted, without responding to the pre-refutation.

For people wondering about where this branch started, see the link. There are others...at least one in the OT forum, but I forget where. Anywhere we trade off posts...it probably ends up heading to the same place.

[formerly known as hf]

C.J.S>

The Industrialist put a link at the top... I guess to avoid that exact question

*resists the urge to get involved*

[formerly known as hf]

Can't you guys just agree to disagree?

[Revanael]

Come on, take the argument to instant messaging or IRC PMs... anyway, I've seen worse arguments before between people - you two are mild in comparison.

[Chrissy]

So the debate is over pixels? You're both right. I'm more the type to not bother figuring it out, but, if I had the knowledge my perfectionist side might kick in and I would count them. This is my interference.

Chrissy

[Pirog]

As for personal offense...a little, but mostly I'm bothered that you used arguements that I'd already refuted, without responding to the pre-refutation.

Where? By saying that it seems like your characters are still driven to reach power and influence? I still think you do.
Saying "X doesn't want power...he just happened to get it" doesn't matter...he still sits there with power and I believe you as a person are extremely motivated by striving for "success". Just look at your name...

But I'm not saying that is the wrong way to play the game...I just find it boring from my own personal view.
If I have missed anything else please just repeat it. I never dodge questions on purpose.

[The Industriallist]

You've no accurate idea of my RL motivations...as I said before, I believe your impression is entirely off. Well, almost entirely. Your guess as to what my RL goals (insofar as they exist) are is certainly way off the mark.

Also...how can you say it doesn't matter if you seek power or get it involuntarily? If someone died and left you a kingdom...unexpectedly...is that your fault? Or is it 'driven to success' to join any organization?

My first character wouldn't mind having influence (may have some...but doesn't use it to avoid becoming a target), but all the power he wants is the power not to be killed. I'd hardly call that ambitious.

I guess I should ask...what do you mean by success? Most (not quite all) of my characters do have some medium to long-term goals that they're working to achieve. But I'll have trouble believing you if you claim that your's don't. (NOTE: not all goals are measured in grams of steel)

[Pirog]

Also...how can you say it doesn't matter if you seek power or get it involuntarily? If someone died and left you a kingdom...unexpectedly...is that your fault?

Not your fault...but not all people should be interested in running a kingdom.

I guess I should ask...what do you mean by success?

In this discussion I mean the ambition to gain power and dominance, by political, economical or other means.

[AoM]

What's wrong with being a mover and a shaker? I know we need normal citizens in this game... but the game's much more fun if you try to find ways for each of your characters to leave some sort of an impact on the world.

At least that's my opinion on the matter.

~AoM

[Pirog]

You can make an inpact without becoming a politician or industrial owner. As you said yourself, there is a need for normal citizens in the game...

[Revanael]

Normal citizens are the most important people to have in the game...