Beauty stat

[AoM]

I think that when and (hopefully) if character descriptions are introduced, we shouldn't be able to choose what our characters look like... after all, we didn't choose what WE looked like when we entered this world. It was random, and we lived with what we got... or we used dyes, plastic surgery and perhaps the occasional botox injection....

And then we let the culture decide what's beautiful and what's not... Maybe Krif is primarily a purple-haired and golden eyed people, and therefore that is the symbol of beauty... the green-haired, orange eyed people... not so much. And lord help you if you have that red-haired, blue-eyed look of the MacGregors... uuuuugly!

As for the weathered look... eh. I could see it causing too many problems with people being overly concerned with their looks and avoiding conversation out-of-doors, which would hurt the role-playing in Cantr, which is the most important part...

It's an interesting idea, but I think that the only in-game thing that should affect your look is if you've gone into "weak" status... Scars if you've been attacked... a gaunt/starving look if you don't eat...

~AoM

[The Industriallist]

I think that when and (hopefully) if character descriptions are introduced, we shouldn't be able to choose what our characters look like... after all, we didn't choose what WE looked like when we entered this world. It was random, and we lived with what we got... or we used dyes, plastic surgery and perhaps the occasional botox injection....

Yeah...I could pass on the population-based traits, though it might be a good thing. But any appearance that's implemented...please make it not a matter of choice.

Of course, this may partly be my hatred of people who ** their hair/eye color. If you can't have the identity without the steriotypical/counter-steriotypical/whatever appearance, there's something very wrong, and very OOC, with your RP.

[The Sociologist]

Maybe Krif is primarily a purple-haired and golden eyed people, and therefore that is the symbol of beauty... the green-haired, orange eyed people... not so much. And lord help you if you have that red-haired, blue-eyed look of the MacGregors... uuuuugly!

I must again point out that there's no justification for town-by-town racial differences such as those suggested here and elsewhere. It has never existed during human evolution and it should not exist in Cantr. The only basis for race is massive continental or subcontinental separations, eg Europe, Asia, Sub-Saharan Africa, Australia and the Americas. This amounts to continental separations in Cantr.

Also, members have voted overwhelmingly against far-out racial types. Were I to wake up one day and discover that I'd green hair and orange eyes, I'd probably stop playing. And with regard to more usual or recognizable racial categories, my advice is don't go there. Jos could end up getting sued, etc, etc.
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[Pirog]

I agree with The Sociologist on the first two points, but it is a bit absurd to think that Jos might get sued for implementing different "races" in a game. Sure, anyone can get sued, but there is no chance that Jos would lose such a case.

myst>

There are for example Africans that work hard their whole life that I find very beautiful. The idea that a pale, fragile human is the pinnacle of beauty is a disgusting remain from European imperialism.

[The Sociologist]

I agree with The Sociologist on the first two points, but it is a bit absurd to think that Jos might get sued for implementing different "races" in a game. Sure, anyone can get sued, but there is no chance that Jos would lose such a case.

Well, Jos is probably best protected by the fact that he's too small-scale to bother with. But if Microsoft was bringing out a game involving multiplayer interaction which implemented realistic racial types, I can guarantee they'd have a whole team of lawyers on the case. Absolutely guaranteed. Sad perhaps, but that's the world we live in.
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[AoM]

The exotic hair/eye color was used to bring home a point, relax.

Secondly, there's a difference in what people look like on a less than continental basis... Major things like skin color, not so much, but you can't tell me that you couldn't tell an average... I don't know, Swede from a Spaniard, an Egyptian from an Ethiopian, a Korean from a Chinese... there are notable differences.

I think that a difference in appearance would very much be in the spirit of this game. I think that the average Pokian should be different from the average Olipian. Maybe not overwhelming differences, but enough to for people to develop stereotypes and heuristics...

Modern day players might want to cringe at the taboo consequences that these things could potentially bring out... but I think that they are way too much a part of real life society to just be ignored.

And I definitely think that there should be differences in appearence between the continents if nothing else.

~AoM

[Pirog]

The Sociologist>

Well, Jos is probably best protected by the fact that he's too small-scale to bother with. But if Microsoft was bringing out a game involving multiplayer interaction which implemented realistic racial types, I can guarantee they'd have a whole team of lawyers on the case. Absolutely guaranteed. Sad perhaps, but that's the world we live in.

I don't understand where you have gotten that strange idea from.
Why would it break any law at all?
There are plenty of games involving different "races"...civilization for example is a strategical game that pretty much involves a struggle between the "races" and even promotes ethcnical cleansing, by wiping entire nations from the world...

Avatar of Meisora>

Different continents and far off areas, yes...but it would seem strange if neighbouring towns like Krif and The Krif Hills had notable differences.

[AoM]

Pirog>

Perfectly acceptable. Although it is strange then that we, as neighboring towns, wouldn't have a similar dialect... I guess the MacGregors, as a people, seem so very different from the McKrifs, so I was just imagining them having different features to go along with their different dialects and personalities.

~AoM

[Pirog]

True, but there aren't very notable differences on a general scale between for example Scots and Englishmen when it comes to appearance. A lot of the Mac Gregors are not born in the highlands either, as far as I know...

[The Sociologist]

The Sociologist>

Well, Jos is probably best protected by the fact that he's too small-scale to bother with. But if Microsoft was bringing out a game involving multiplayer interaction which implemented realistic racial types, I can guarantee they'd have a whole team of lawyers on the case. Absolutely guaranteed. Sad perhaps, but that's the world we live in.

I don't understand where you have gotten that strange idea from. Why would it break any law at all?

Alas, one doesn't need to break any laws in order to get sued. All one needs to do is to facilitate any person just feeling slightly less good about themselves than they did before. Also, lawsuits don't have to be winnable, it is the threat that earns settlements. But, like I said, the smaller you are the less likely you are to be targeted.

I could live with realistic hair and eye shades only, distributed randomly with no zonal clumping, but then so what?
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[Pirog]

I don't know...that just feels like a quite unfair argument from you because you personally wouldn't like to see this implemented.
I'm very certain that such a a case wouldn't go to court...at least not in Europe.

[The Sociologist]

I don't know...that just feels like a quite unfair argument from you because you personally wouldn't like to see this implemented.
I'm very certain that such a a case wouldn't go to court...at least not in Europe.

What really scared me was your own post of Sun Oct 31, 2004 in the 'Eye colours etc.' thread. You said:

I think a ground for expressing suspicion against strangers would be an interesting feature in a society simulator. Some societies would probably embrace foreigners, while others may adapt racist ideals.

Now if that intent is coupled with realistic racial types, then there is a potential legal problem. Which is doubtless why Jos was thinking of moving away to the green hair/orange eyes business, but then it seems players don't really want that.

You also wrote:

IRL I think racism is disgusting, but in a game like this it would have it's place. Of course it would be against the rules to use OOC views for discriminating characters though....

Well, with respect, either it is disgusting or else it has its place, but not both. As for OOC views, the MacGregors detest Sassenachs. What's a Sassenach? Weel, I'll tell ye. Sassenach are folk that are no Scots.

So what names are players going to come up with for groupings of dark-haired characters, precisely in order to "express suspicion against strangers" (your words), and which don't involve OOC views? And if some players slip up and do incoorporate OOC views, then the issue becomes whether Jos in any way facilitated that process.

OK so the people here are mature, irrespective of age it seems, but it's not like the game is invitation only. I'm betting Jos will be driven back in the direction of far-out colors. And those I don't particularly want.
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[Pirog]

Now if that intent is coupled with realistic racial types, then there is a potential legal problem.

No, it still wouldn't. And "realistic racial types" would simply be using somewhat realistic skin and eye colors...it wouldn't, or at least shouldn't, include any similarity to RL ethnical groups.
I also think some new tones should be included, as long as they are realistic. Olive green skin, red eyes etc. would feel allright for me...as well as mixing up the apperances, so that one cantrian people could have dark skin, blond hair and blue eyes while another has yellow skin and "afro" hair in a red color etc.

I don't know where you live, but I doubt that you can get sued for things like this even in a process crazy country like USA, much less in Europe. And if someone would sue they wouldn't have a case anyway.

Well, with respect, either it is disgusting or else it has its place, but not both.

So if this would be an RPG based during the second world war you think we should have excluded the Nazis just because we don't agree with their ideology?

As for OOC views, the MacGregors detest Sassenachs. What's a Sassenach? Weel, I'll tell ye. Sassenach are folk that are no Scots.

Well, that was news to me and that isn't good. Such things I think should be prevented.

So what names are players going to come up with for groupings of dark-haired characters, precisely in order to "express suspicion against strangers

Well, calling someone nigger for example would be totally pointless since it wouldn't have a context. But saying "I don't trust these dark/pale/yellow/whatever skinned people" when facing people of different appearance that are different from you should be allright from a IC view. Instead of hiding under a rock and screaming "look out for the lawsuits!" this could be a ground for IC discussions that could open the eyes of a lot of players with real life prejudice.

The big problem with the implementation (in my view) would be that a lot of the world is allready mixed, making it unnatural to one day wake up and realize that someone looks totally different from you and suddenly start to dwell on it...so I would prefer a reset of the game. But that will not happen it seems.

And if some players slip up and do incoorporate OOC views, then the issue becomes whether Jos in any way facilitated that process.

Yeah...big chance.
In that case someone could sue Jos right now since threats of violence and ethnical cleansing is allready common in the game.

OK so the people here are mature, irrespective of age it seems, but it's not like the game is invitation only. I'm betting Jos will be driven back in the direction of far-out colors. And those I don't particularly want.

If I would believe in your theory I would agree...but I don't.

[The Industriallist]

About the Mac Gregors...they are a huge gaping CR breach in some ways, I think. Particularly the terminology chosen. But I think most of the breach is so far in the past there's no point in talking about it. Nothing they have actually refers to OOC things, and everything they use has a sound IC definition...they just yanked a lot of it from OOC sources, in the dim past. But then, at one time naming a bike Hover Craft was OK, apparently... A more present issue is Lord Gregor's rhetoric... "become death, the destroyer of worlds", among other bits in that famous note, are ripped off from IRL sources.

But Sassinach, whatever it means IRL, to them it means 'designated enemies of the clan'. Not people who type without a stupid accent, or anything akin.

[AoM]

Well said Pirog. I second your talking points.

What I am curious about is... why are people so afraid or loathing of far out colors? Described color in a text based game it seems is an arbitrary thing. Did you people hate cartoons when you grew up or something?

~AoM