The Art of Playing a Good "Bad Guy"

[Marian]

I think that there is a place for killing other characters--insofar as that another player's character absolutely gives your bad character no other option.

Good post, and this here is the only situation I would be okay with killing...except that as things stand there's no way to enforce or guarantee it.

But if the player is essentially choosing to have their char die by not taking any of the other options available...this is of course in a situation where other options were offered...it's just so much more acceptable all around.

Any of my chars would give up their keys to save their life, and I have some who'd take imprisonment over death (as long as a good faith effort was made to give them work and RP with them on the part of the captor...) and some who'd go down fighting. But in either situation it would still be my choice. I absolutely loathe players who kill casually or without RP, and it's something that still happens far too often.

But still, with NDS, if you can get another char in that state there's very few situations you can't have them completely secured by the time they're able to move again. And many players would choose to kill their chars rather than play out that kind of situation anyway, so in the end I wouldn't expect a removal of the murder option changing much, except letting players have a say in the end of their char's story.

[computaertist]

I'm probably in the minority here, but I don't even really see what death adds to the game. Stories people have put months or years of work and care and love into, abruptly cut off and lost forever without even the guarantee of RP. I honestly think I'd be perfectly happy if NDS was as far as a character could be taken through violence, unless the player themselves opted to die.

Seconded.

[Wolfsong]

I suppose I sit squarely on the other side of the fence here. See, the severing of one story can cause others to unravel (following this thread metaphor, I guess) and spiral off in directions they never would have gone otherwise. Sometimes the death of one character can cause other characters they were connected to to do things they never would have otherwise, both good and bad - whereas if everyone got to live happily ever after all the time, things would stagnate. ("He writes not of love but of lust, of defeats in which nobody loses anything of value, of victories without hope and, worst of all, without pity or compassion. His griefs grieve on no universal bones, leaving no scars. He writes not of the heart but of the glands.") Every story has to have an ending. A good death (properly RPed, in line with how the character would behave, etc.) is a better ending than having them slowly sleep to death after you get bored and go inactive years later.

[*Wiro]

With the introduction of NDS I can't justify murder in this game and I'll always go out of my way to punish people who kill.

[sherman]

I suppose I sit squarely on the other side of the fence here. See, the severing of one story can cause others to unravel (following this thread metaphor, I guess) and spiral off in directions they never would have gone otherwise. Sometimes the death of one character can cause other characters they were connected to to do things they never would have otherwise, both good and bad - whereas if everyone got to live happily ever after all the time, things would stagnate. ("He writes not of love but of lust, of defeats in which nobody loses anything of value, of victories without hope and, worst of all, without pity or compassion. His griefs grieve on no universal bones, leaving no scars. He writes not of the heart but of the glands.") Every story has to have an ending. A good death (properly RPed, in line with how the character would behave, etc.) is a better ending than having them slowly sleep to death after you get bored and go inactive years later.

What's so fun about losing char you invested maybe years and then on one day getting dragged, moved behind locks and killed without rp? Possible even done in matter of few irl minutes while you are not online and have no chance to do nothing at all? I can honestly say that that's no fun and I can understand why you would feel pissed off after that

[prometheus]

What's so fun about losing char you invested maybe years and then on one day getting dragged, moved behind locks and killed without rp? Possible even done in matter of few irl minutes while you are not online and have no chance to do nothing at all? I can honestly say that that's no fun and I can understand why you would feel pissed off after that

I think literally all people who have said anything not anti-murder completely are all for RP, myself included. Realistically, people WILL sometimes choose death over imprisonment and loss of personal wealth--is it foolish? Maybe. But good characters aren't perfect, dynamic characters have flaws and attributes both, so I don't think a flaw like that is a bad thing. It adds to a story.
From the other side, the side of the killer, there are LOTS of reasons to do it IG, not all of them bad, but even so, it CAN sometimes add to the story, like anything else. If it's overused it becomes cliche, trope-y, and boring, but I'm not about moral writing or easy writing. What interests me is good, dynamic writing. And that doesn't always come from your hard working trader types.

[sherman]

Yeah but when it's just random group coming, dragging you and killing you in matter of minutes.. It's not fun. It gives feeling you are facing firing squad there

Would you have fun if your char would be dragged and killed while you sleep/offline without any word or interaction by captors?

[prometheus]

I don't know where you're getting 'random group' from, as that's not what I am suggesting at all, nor, I think, is anyone else.
Killing without RP is bad.
Killing in general isn't necessarily bad.

[sherman]

Well, random group might be in this case be just 2 folks docking, dragging and then fleeing away on ship and killing guy on cabin. But that's not main point what that random group is. I mean we have NDS so you don't need to kill your foe permanently

Also that's how pretty much current combat system goes too. So myself I would vote that NDS is furthest you can go and only player can kill it off. Cause even some players who just join to break havoc (playing newspawn thieves) can get lucky and kill you

[hyrle]

I'd imagine that this would lead to a case where non-RP killers would simply place your NDS'ed character in a locked room with no food and let you starve. Not sure that's any better than the current state where they finish your character off immediately.

[*Wiro]

I'd imagine that this would lead to a case where non-RP killers would simply place your NDS'ed character in a locked room with no food and let you starve. Not sure that's any better than the current state where they finish your character off immediately.

You'd still be able to finish off your own character, which translates to "died from their wounds" in-game. Personally I can't think of a situation where I would want to force death on a character, because in my experience it's always more interesting to roleplay with people who aren't dead.

The dead don't talk much.

[hyrle]

I realize this, and to be honest, I'd probably not finish off my own character to see how things play out. Especially if they were older and had things and people to live for.

For example, in my one encounter where my character was killed by a bunch of no-RP pirates, my character was behind his boat's main lock and standing on his deck when he was killed. If his lock ended up proving hard to pick for said pirates - long enough to allow him to rise up out of NDS, my character (who also happened to be strong and a skilled fighter) might have had a chance to fight back and possibly resist the attack. Maybe the idea would be "you can attack a character on a vehicle and put them in NDS, but can't finish them off" is a good idea.

Edit: Actually - I forgot - no way I'd be able to pop back up since no one would heal my lone sailor. So it'd be 3 days of waiting to die.

[SekoETC]

hyrle, if you go into NDS and there's no one present to save you, you would die anyway. I don't know if the case in question had crew mates, but if not and the pirates had failed to pick the lock fast enough to heal you, you would've died.

[Marian]

.[/quote]

I'd imagine that this would lead to a case where non-RP killers would simply place your NDS'ed character in a locked room with no food and let you starve. Not sure that's any better than the current state where they finish your character off immediately.

It's still an improvement, because it that case you have at least until the end of the three days to come to terms with it, or even to see if the situation would change. And if that wasn't something you wanted to deal with, you could let the character die at any point while they were in NDS. Most players would probably choose the latter option, actually. People do not like their characters' autonomy being taken away, even in a situation where there's no threat to their lives. So it would change very little, practically speaking, except in those few cases a character was extremely determined to survive no matter what. But for the player of the victim, being allowed to make their peace and click that button for themselves would make all the difference.

I don't know where you're getting 'random group' from, as that's not what I am suggesting at all, nor, I think, is anyone else.
Killing without RP is bad.
Killing in general isn't necessarily bad

Killing without RP is bad in our opinion, but obviously not in everyone's. There's no way to enforce RP, so as long as people can be killed, people will be killed without RP. Giving a securely locked away or even NDSed victim a chance to respond is a token level of respect for other players some just can't be bothered with.

And at the end of the day, I'm not sure even a well RPed murder adds much to the game. Like Wiro said, you can't RP with the dead. The victim disappears without a trace along with all their notes, their story is cut off forever, everything they are or could have been gets reduced to just another notch in the killer's belt, and that much less life in an already dying world.

[Money]

I don't know where you're getting 'random group' from, as that's not what I am suggesting at all, nor, I think, is anyone else.
Killing without RP is bad.
Killing in general isn't necessarily bad

Killing without RP is bad in our opinion, but obviously not in everyone's. There's no way to enforce RP, so as long as people can be killed, people will be killed without RP. Giving a securely locked away or even NDSed victim a chance to respond is a token level of respect for other players some just can't be bothered with.

And at the end of the day, I'm not sure even a well RPed murder adds much to the game. Like Wiro said, you can't RP with the dead. The victim disappears without a trace along with all their notes, their story is cut off forever, everything they are or could have been gets reduced to just another notch in the killer's belt, and that much less life in an already dying world.

I think your exaggerating the effects of death. A person can never disappear without a trace in this game, it could only occur if they contributed nothing to the game in the first place. Items, gathered resources, notes, memories and any organizations which they created or helped built up would all still be present after the character dies.

I do agree that characters can disappear without an identifiable trace, indeed this sadly happens frequently, but that is the fault of the character and their player for not making anything to last. With the implementation of custom descriptions we will hopefully see more things like heirloom swords or other such famous items but again this is dependent on the character and their player.

I also seriously disagree with the idea that death doesn't add something to the game, its a key part of the society simulation aspect of Cantr. Without death leaders would no longer need to consider how they literally hold lives in their hands, key holder would be literally immortal and romances would never be tragically cut short as they are in life. A world without death is one without its greatest forces for change and renewal, life doesn't end it respawns.