Thinking about quitting.....

[SekoETC]

Could someone say what all this is about or is it still under 4 day rule? I have no idea what you're talking about but it sounds like you do.

[Marian]

Could someone say what all this is about or is it still under 4 day rule? I have no idea what you're talking about but it sounds like you do.

Well that's just the thing. No one is allowed to discuss anything. The four day rule has nothing to do with it, only the rules put in place to make sure the players on staff can never be held accountable for their behavior.

And we all wonder why we have such a hard time keeping new players.

[sanchez]

This may be helpful:

Yeah, I know that people complain that the CR is not clear enough. And I know that is to a large extent my fault. The problem is quite simple, I think: the CR is in a sense a very clear rule to understand the idea behind it. And when people stick to the idea behind it, there is no problem. Once you start to specify in much more detail what is allowed and what isn't, people start to forget about the basic idea of the rule, and start to follow the strict rules instead. Most PD members are, for as far as I know, in favour of such a strict interpretation (e.g. only 1 char in one organization; only 2 chars on one location; etc.), while I have always been very reluctant to support such rules. I know of players who had chars continuously in the same area (Richard around Quillanoi, for example), but who were very clearly abiding by the CR and who really understood the spirit of the CR. Once I start specifying in more detail, people think everything is ok when they just stick to those rules, but there is no set of clear rules that encompass the whole of the CR, while the CR is very simple and clear rule. All cooperation and interaction between characters should follow from their in-game interactions and should not be influenced by out-of-game facts, be it that two chars are of one player, or a player knows more than the char, or the players know the player of another char, etc. Within reason, of course, like chars can speak English. It seems to me that it is rather obvious where breaking this rule spoils the game and where it is reasonable. Unfortunately, I seem to be the only one who thinks the rule is totally obvious ...

I also have to say, that in nearly ten years of playing this game, I have never seen someone go public about a PD case and tell the truth. PD members never get to tell the whole story, and it’s not just about you when you have a case. It’s about innocent players of chars around yours who deserve not to have their game disrupted or influenced by knowledge of your chars or your case. And it’s about PD members taking a lot of abuse and doing a thankless job. Write a letter to GAB if you want them to conduct an internal review of how PD is handling your case, but don't expect public discussion of that either. It seems a bit silly for anyone to be judging handling of a case that’s not even their own. No matter how much you may like someone’s RP, it doesn’t mean they are playing fairly.

[Marian]

I also have to say, that in nearly ten years of playing this game, I have never seen someone go public about a PD case and tell the truth. PD members never get to tell the whole story, and it’s not just about you when you have a case. It’s about innocent players of chars around yours who deserve not to have their game disrupted or influenced by knowledge of your chars or your case. And it’s about PD members taking a lot of abuse and doing a thankless job. Write a letter to GAB if you want them to conduct an internal review of how PD is handling your case, but don't expect public discussion of that either. It seems a bit silly for anyone to be judging handling of a case that’s not even their own. No matter how much you may like someone’s RP, it doesn’t mean they are playing fairly.

I'm sorry but this just makes me want to laugh and laugh and laugh.

This is not the game you think it is.

[sanchez]

This is not the game you think it is.

You don't win when nobody else is keeping score, Marian.

[Wolfsong]

No game is. Every single game that is run by volunteers is hopelessly, overwhelmingly corrupt. It's just how this works. People put their time and effort into staffing on the game, but they want something back in return and paying people is out of the question. So it's easier to turn the other cheek. Players complaining won't stop the corruption. At best, all they will ever manage to do is cycle the people who are being corrupt.

[Optimus Christ]

*he sits back with his coffee and popcorn* This is getting good. "The spirit of the rule" that's funny. Rules are supposed to be clear cut, not vague and open to interpretation. Kind of defeats the purpose since no on has any spirit anymore for the game. How can we, when this stuff goes on. And yes I am being incredibly vague, so no one can say I broke any rules. I know its been more of a "oh man, I have to log in now?" But I'll just sit back and relax, while the banning occurs.

[Axiom]

I also have to say, that in nearly ten years of playing this game, I have never seen someone go public about a PD case and tell the truth. PD members never get to tell the whole story, and it’s not just about you when you have a case. It’s about innocent players of chars around yours who deserve not to have their game disrupted or influenced by knowledge of your chars or your case. And it’s about PD members taking a lot of abuse and doing a thankless job. Write a letter to GAB if you want them to conduct an internal review of how PD is handling your case, but don't expect public discussion of that either. It seems a bit silly for anyone to be judging handling of a case that’s not even their own. No matter how much you may like someone’s RP, it doesn’t mean they are playing fairly.

I've been trying not to cause a public fuss about this, but I feel that I should weigh in at this point. My complaint is not with the investigation itself. I understand that PD has a difficult, thankless job that they receive only criticism for, that interpreting such a vague rule is a challenge, and that they make a strong effort to behave in a fair and even-handed way. However, I hope you also understand that it is very frustrating for me to make a good-faith effort to resolve the situation and then have requests for clear expectations about my behavior ignored, then have my account locked when I try to cooperate. It is also very frustrating to deal with continual insinuations that I am a cheater and to have action taken against my account without explanation for several days. I respect PD's dedication to this game and their efforts to make it a fair and fun experience for all players, but regardless of whether there was wrongdoing, I no longer wish to be involved in this process.

At this point, I no longer care whether I'm right or wrong or what the outcome of the case is. I just want to quit. I would appreciate it if PD would either delete my account as I asked two days ago, as I am unable to unsubscribe, or provide me with an explanation about why it won't been deleted. I would also like to be removed from the ProgD group. Once my account is gone, I will leave the forums and not bother you further.

I'd like to sincerely thank the staff of the game for their hard work and express my appreciation for the fun I've had over the last few months.

[hyrle]

I'm going to play peacemaker here because I can see both sides of the argument. On one end the main rule of the game is "The game must be played exclusively from the perspective of each individual character" does sound incredibly simple. For example - I have had the pleasure of having two characters interact heavily with one town leader... the first one couldn't stand them, the second one practically worships the group they walk on. Most of the time, if I have multiple characters encounter the same individual, they often form similar opinions, but it's certainly been interesting and delightful to see how these two very different characters - with their different ages, personalities, goals and aspirations - also ended up having completely different reactions to the same character. (And I love that it's happened this way!)

However, it can be difficult in our hyper-connected world to always keep in mind that we sometimes we need to "forget what we know" in order to keep within the boundaries of the rule. We're probably all used to using our knowledge to help us "get ahead" in life as most people here are either students or those who work in more intellectual pursuits. For example - in the real world, I work in an occupation that I could only work in due to my knowledge of specific skills. And knowledge of those skills has served me well. So to intentionally not use knowledge that we possess is an unnatural thing for many of us. Especially when a possible security situation is involved that could cause us permanent loss of characters - since most of us love our characters and those that play with them. That being said, it's paramount that each of us learn to compartmentalize our multiple characters' knowledge and experience if we want to keep within the CR. If you can't do that, it might be a good idea to cut down on the number of characters and try to spread them very far apart to resist the temptation to break the rule. I've been culling my character list recently just to try and help me do that better.

Also - I thoroughly disagree with the statement "Since no on (sic) has any spirit anymore for the game"... there's plenty of love for this game by many of the players. I don't think we'd be having this discussion if there wasn't a love for this game among its avid and longtime players.

[Axiom]

Hyrle, I appreciate you trying to help, but you don't know the specifics of the situation, and I'm not going to discuss it. As far as I'm concerned, the matter is resolved now.

[Moonflame]

*he sits back with his coffee and popcorn* This is getting good. "The spirit of the rule" that's funny. Rules are supposed to be clear cut, not vague and open to interpretation. Kind of defeats the purpose since no on has any spirit anymore for the game. How can we, when this stuff goes on. And yes I am being incredibly vague, so no one can say I broke any rules. I know its been more of a "oh man, I have to log in now?" But I'll just sit back and relax, while the banning occurs.

We don't have transparency because of people like me. I'm not directly affected, I have spirit, I don't have to be involved. I'm still on the learning curve waiting for my characters to go up on the RP praise thread. Despite the unavoidable crap we all suffer I have a lot of praise saved up for people on all levels of this game. I'm only sure on 1 of your characters Opti, and they kind of act like you but have a bit more hair and they talk funnier. It's inspiring how you get their personality across with few words, some of my characters are trying to be more like that. I like seeing a few words and having a character spring to mind.

If anyone still wants to play Cantr I'll be sitting here patiently with my mediocre RP, dumping stuff in front of your face to see if it gets your attention, fussing over you like a mother hen, attaching myself clingingly to your leg, attempting to grouch or climbing all over your boat. Love me!

[sanchez]

No game is. Every single game that is run by volunteers is hopelessly, overwhelmingly corrupt. It's just how this works. People put their time and effort into staffing on the game, but they want something back in return and paying people is out of the question. So it's easier to turn the other cheek. Players complaining won't stop the corruption. At best, all they will ever manage to do is cycle the people who are being corrupt.

I don’t know where this is coming from. In my experience, PD members avoid working on cases where there own chars may be involved (except in very small language zones), and they usually work as a group and review each other’s work. It not impossible for individual personal bias to take a role, but all PD work is monitored, so at worst, it can’t be much.

Corruption is a strong word to use, as it implies malice. In the past, the game was moderated a bit differently, when all staff and players knew eachother and played together as friends. As the game grew and the playerbase diversified, this style became less appropriate, and did lead to some appearance of bias, in particular in favour of older English players, some of whom had developed very different expectations of what was allowable. As far as I can tell, we don’t have those problems in the same way now, not least since the dissolution of GAC. There are no English players currently serving as Department Chairs or GAB. If you escalate a complaint, it’s likely to be reviewed by people who don’t even play in the same zone as your chars. The only reward for PD work is a more fair game.

[Alladinsane]

Well, this is the first long awaited PD response.
I am merely responding as a member and this is not official PD decision as of yet.


I will start by closing this thread first... no deletions though, you say it, then you own it.
But while there is a fear that PD may delete your posts... we also have a worry that you might delete your own posts.
You say it; you own it.

I would like to refer you first of all to the forum rules as posted by a GAB member, they are 2 years old and you all probably know them by heart. Its not like we are driving a car without knowing where the brake pedal is right?
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=25244

2 yrs and we attack the silent guys?

There are quite a few misstatements that have been made in this thread; we cannot as PD respond because of our agreements to protect the players; guilty and innocent alike. Yes we have the 'banhammer' and try to only use it with extreme consideration. Believe it or not, we want you all to play this game (with us) and sometimes it can cause one of our 'bad days' when someone purposely tries to test the limits of our patience and power. None of us want that and some resent it being forced upon us. But love of the game comes first in our mantra's and we try to make decisions based on the perseverance and continuity of cantr as a whole.

Some of you would feel vindicated by some of our actions, and some unjustly persecuted.

The thing that personally sticks in my craw is that we put out a statement asking for some volunteers to join PD recently. I do not see a single one of our attackers submitting applications.
I learned long ago that you cannot fight city hall without going to city hall... march up those steps and be an adult. Otherwise, you just sit in the corner and whine about things that you could change but seem to lack in either courage, motivation, or maybe time to do something about it. If you want a better team, join it, otherwise... (insert some unsympathetic comment here).

I was disappointed also that an ex-PD member gave a pretty prescient statement in this thread and in the next post was belittled and "laughed and laughed" at and told that she knew little about the game. This statement by someone who has never even volunteered their time or never said "I want to help you people". (to my knowledge)
Nope, derision. Have we become so uncivil as a group here?

Nobody has been banned, just a thread closed. If anyone wants to respond to me personally, you have my PM addy and I will talk to anyone who thinks I have been unfair in this post and retract any incorrect comments. I want to see all of us treated fairly and I want to play the darn game, not join in this troll fest. Heck, I may even be in trouble for locking this thread... I am stepping out and taking a risk.

Lets all cool down for a few days please and just play the game.


If you are confused about the CR... contact us! We are dealing with a lot of new stuff IG now that ex members of staff did not. Allow us to learn with you. The foremost is the radio...
but dice and certain items give you also what the CR was meant to give you: flexibility to be creative.
We have no rules specifically tailored to those and are not likely to ever (except the radio, we have to deal with that.

I respect each and every one of you and hope you will extend the same; lets talk this out (in about a week, or in PM) and see what we as a group of people can do to make this tolerable. Its not a democracy, but we do have a suggestions thread and alot of you have seen your desires granted. Not all (this includes me) unfortunately. But lets see if we can each make a post (non-sarcastic please) in the 'things that thrill or amuse you about cantr' thread and input suggestions that improve the game as opposed to our own individual situations.

[Alladinsane]

I did post my retraction in the other thread.
========================
============================

Okay, I am going to reopen this thread, the other will remain closed to avoid redundancy.

This thread will return to its original intent… to ask about and discuss things other than the current issue being discussed in the suggestions thread. That thread is what it’s for now. Even though it seems to have drifted from suggestions, you can continue to discuss it there. I may even have a proposed exercise for some of you if it’s approved. Just something fun to give a glimpse.

Please keep it civil.

[Axiom]

The other thread seems to have vanished, so I'll repeat this here. I'm very sorry to everyone who wanted me to stay, but it didn't work out, and I've now quit. I had a great time playing with all of you and hope that I made a positive impact on people's experiences. I'll probably check forum PMs for a few more days, so if you want to stay in touch, feel free to PM me and we'll work something out. I'll also be in the IRC channel for a little while longer.