Newspawn knowledge

[SekoETC]

The Spanish subforum has a conversation about if newspawns are allowed to for example know what's an elephant if they've never seen on. I've been reading it through Google Translate but it would probably be inappropriate to reply in English, so we might as well discuss the same topic here.

I think characters shouldn't automatically know which animals exist in Cantr and which don't, so they should only know the animals of their spawning island/region, and ask other people about other animals.

I've seen characters reference animals they have never seen or heard of, so it's sort of OOC. Then again, I've for example had a character with a last name of Parsley, even though parsley doesn't exist in Cantr. I think if the game goes to a point where people aren't allowed to know basic words because they aren't specifically defined in Cantr, that gets too limiting. Some things can be assumed to exist, even if the game doesn't mention them.

Examples of things I assume exist:
- insects, butteflies, worms (the birds have to eat something)
- small birds and rodents (They aren't huntable because they couldn't be used to feed humans, but they feed some larger animals. Also they can explain why things deteriorate when left outside.)
- microbes (deterioration)
- wild flowers (You could rp gathering them, but not sell them, because they wither so fast you can't transport them.)
- random plants/undergrowth
- tree leaves (you can't gather them, but you could rp gathering them)
- The sky is probably blue (Cantrians are humans, humans need oxygen, oxygen makes athmosphere appear blue due to light distortion)
- Water is used for cooking (This is different quality water than the one used for projects that actually use water)
- Yeast is used to make bread
- People probably use small amounts of salt for cooking if they have access to it.
- Grapevines, tomato vines (The fruit doesn't just float in the air)
- Carrot greens
- Fish bones

Games cannot make everything an object because only significant things can be objects. There was a posting about this in KoL forums and someone wrote a joking example of what a pirate could potentially drop when you killed one, including pocket lint. Later they actually implemented pocket lint for some reason. But the original point was that it was an example of an item that can be assumed to exist, yet isn't programmed because it holds no value.

[Swingerzetta]

It's a bit of a tricky subject, because we spawn knowing basically the whole language, and it's assumed that we know the contents of the wiki, as well. I would imagine that newspawns would know the word elephant, but maybe not have any concept of what it is until they saw one, and then something would Click and they'd just know that that is what an elephant is.
But then again, we learn about elephants long before we first get to see one, if we ever see one, as a normal part of growing up. It's something that happens in that first twenty years of existence that Cantarians miss out on, along with learning a language, and developing the foundations for our personalitites. Maybe it's safe to assume that whatever happens before we spawn, it includes learning the names of common animals.

[NancyLee]

We were reading the same thread XD

I think if the game goes to a point where people aren't allowed to know basic words because they aren't specifically defined in Cantr, that gets too limiting.

For me, that's the key. A sensible balance isn't that hard to achieve and both extremes are either too constrictive or too ooc for me (depending on which extreme you pick). Since I don't take well when other player pretends to inflict their ways on me, I try not to do it either with the rest of players around me. As long as we all abide by the rules, I see no problems further than a matter of likes and preferences and the subject is tricky anyway.

I remember reading an ooc argument in game long time ago because a character had in his description a dragon carved on his shield. The player didn't use the word "dragon", just described something that looked like it and, as far as I saw, never claimed to see such a creature in game. I was oocly amused, sort of, at the polemic that something so trivia created way back then.

I've also been "reprimanded" once by a player for emoting something about silk worms while one of my character was picking cocoons (don't really remember the interaction now, it was on my early days). It didn't bother me, as it didn't bother me at all either the fact that other people were roleplaying that the cocoons just sprouted from the trees like they were some sort of flower. I don't think that cantr has necessarily to follow the real life logics but I don't think either, as you stated, that every single thing needs to be made an object for us to be able to refer to it, so for me both options were legit (as it would have also been legit for me if other characters reacted as if my char was seeing imaginary "worms"). I wasn't even a little bit interested in having an argument, even less in the game interface itself, so I didn't answer back, but what did bother me way back then is that the player who said "there's no worms in cantr" was roleplaying a pregnant woman. As with every other aspect in life, it's double morals what bothers me more than those little things as someone roleplaying that (s)he uses salt for cooking or that adds water to a stew even if the recipe doesn't require those ingredients.

Edit to add this quote by bnlphan, who is way more eloquent and precise than me

So long as you don't know maps languages, or other characters you've never met I wont complain too much how you choose to play the game.

[bnlphan]

This has always been a gray area for me. What characters are allowed to know and not know upon spawning. It seems to be generally accepted that someone can practically know everything in the wiki upon spawning, while at the same time other choose to know nothing and even go so far as learning how to speak and what clothes are in the first few days. I always took it that your characters had 20 mysterious years to sort of know some basics before they were "spawned" which can be disputed because it doesnt say you see a man in his twenties spawn..it says you notice a man in his twenties whom you haven't seen before. That could be argued that he was there the whole time and you just didn't notice so he could be expected to know 20 years worth of the Cantr world..whatever that would be. Are there mysterious Cantr primary schools that teach the Wiki we don't know of and forget upon "spawning" Okay I'm rambling but my main take on it...is if you want to know a majority of everything in the wiki like animals and projects and resources I'm fine with it just like I'm fine with those that appear and start screaming because they are scared and have no idea where they are or what a potato is. So long as you don't know maps languages, or other characters you've never met I wont complain too much how you choose to play the game.

[ObsessedWithCats]

There are a lot of figures of speech which shouldn't make any sense at all given what exists and doesn't in Cantr and yet are undeniably part of the languages newspawns are allowed to know.

I'm not too worried about what people know so long as it doesn't involve in-game people, places or events (or second languages without time spent learning them). I've seen varying degrees of recognition in strange foods, new animals and occasionally social practices, and while I feel a bit weird about, for instance, someone automatically knowing that alcohol makes you drunk, I don't really mind it. My own characters' knowledge varies; generally they know figures of speech and recognise animals they've actually seen but wont necessarily recognise relationship types or the effects of alcohol and might ask what a food they're seeing for the first time tastes like.

I admire your restraint NancyLee, I'm not a fan of arguments but I think if someone had been that hypocritical in my hearing I wouldn't have been able to resist pointing it out Pregnancy and silkworms are pretty much completely analogous as far as existing in Cantr is concerned, except that silk worms are a thing you could imagine the game might have but not mention.

I would like to have some cats in Cantr that aren't large enough to need culling for safety. Cantr would be near-perfect with kitties.

[Cdls]

If there are going to be restrictions on what characters should or shouldn't know, it should be across the board and not bits and pieces that appease certain groups of players.

[sherman]

To me we can assume that 20 years old knows basics but really sometimes it's hard to ''not know'' or you just forget that thing..

[Uma]

I think a new spawn knows anything they can figure out from the interface where they spawn, plus the names of any animals, vehicles, harbors, or bulidings they see. They also have an absolutely uncanny sense of weight and time

[hyrle]

What my characters tend /not/ to know is about places, other than from the maps, or about people they've never met.

[Bucanan]

Hello everyone, I’m the guy who started the topic about this in the Spanish forum. It's nice to see how people in every country around are involved even in foreign forums. I will try to go in depth with this topic.

I understand that a character wouldn’t talk about an “elephant” if he hasn’t seen one (i'm indifferent to this). But in this case, the problem is way bigger when the knowledge is not about animals or other nouns of “species” or “objects” or “constructions”... The problem starts when, according to the rules interpretation of the players, you cannot even say substantive adjectives or similar words. For example, some people think that new characters cannot refer to anyone as a “husband”, “elder”, “priest”, “leader”… if the character hadn’t learned about this words before. This case started because of this, and in this case, in my oppinion, as a roleplay game that Cantr is, a “new” character of 20 years old should perfectly know and use that kind of words.

In every role-play game I’ve ever known and played, when you create a character, you create it with its past, its motivation and its personality (from Dungeons and Dragons to even videogames like Fallout or Skyrim, you can give your character a personality from the very first scene). In this case, some people think that not only the personality cannot be build before the beginning, but the knowledge of almost everything. Personally I think that this is an extreme situation that restricts a lot the roleplay and the development of the character in (for example) a town where everything is done except working in boring tasks to get your lunch while you are “learning” how to be like the old characters.

Of course, I will do my best to adapt myself to the usual behavior of the other players. I like in here!

I hope my English can be understood by everyone,
Nice to meet you all!

[Cdls]

For example, some people think that new characters cannot refer to anyone as a “husband”, “elder”, “priest”, “leader”… if the character hadn’t learned about this words before. This case started because of this, and in this case, in my oppinion, as a roleplay game that Cantr is, a “new” character of 20 years old should perfectly know and use that kind of words.

If someone is causing problems by saying you (or others) cannot use such terminology, report them to the PD and we will put a stop to it. There is no reason such terms cannot be used.

The exception to this is lets say there is a community that created their own made up terminology. Such terminology should not be used unless the character has knowledge of such.

[SekoETC]

It's fairly common that someone uses words like child, father, mother, etc, and other characters are like "what does that mean, could you explain to me?" I find that alright. But if someone dictates others aren't allowed to use words like that then that goes too far. It's okay that some characters know them and some don't, just like some characters for example know how to make iron even if they have never seen anyone make it, while some have to learn from others. It's all about what players personally find themselves comfortable with. Some like to add some extra challenge to the game, while some prefer to know all words and everything in the wiki.

[Bucanan]

If someone is causing problems by saying you (or others) cannot use such terminology, report them to the PD and we will put a stop to it. There is no reason such terms cannot be used.

I don't think that this will be neccessary, y just wanted to clarify this issue.
Thanks a lot!

[Uma]

a “new” character of 20 years old should perfectly know and use that kind of words.

I STRONGLY feel that way. as a 20 year old every character should be "allowed"to understand basic concepts of culture and life. Gender, Ruler titles, concepts of value. really anything in the dictionary.

I presume in that 20 years, while learning how to make every item in the game that ins't made on a machine an how to judge a gram of stone from 2 grams of stone, you learn words for things and social norms for your area (in terms of king, mother, word for food. life and death). Otherwise everyone would spawn and start wailing like a toddler learning to speak, we wouldn't be allowed to use English because we'd have to use the code of jibberish that we created on our own

[Bucanan]

I totally agree with you Uma. And I totally agree too if someone wants to create a new character that has no idea of speaking a language (even the one it owns). Everyone should respect the other player’s choice, and even if the roleplay chosen is hard to follow, at least I think we should try. I think that is the key to the game.

(unless the character was breaking some rule, obviously)

But the problem start when, for some kind of reason, other characters question another character roleplay instead of trying to adapt themselves and get used to this new role-play. That is way funnier, way less problematic and (most important), way simple that starting an unnecessary roleplay war. But in my experience, people who meet with a "special roleplayed" character, often fights the "conflict" by ignoring him and forcing him to change this role, or even putting him in jail and let him starv to death without any explanation.

In the rules we can read something about it, and it seems that this situation is very normal:

- Your character should not have a background story describing the time before they spawned. They can have set personalities, and you can even have them act as if they have a back story, but this should not be made public to the other characters. If it is, your character will likely be treated as insane.

What do you think about that? Have you had some experiences about this issue?

Regards,