Cooking Potatoes

Out-of-character discussion forum for players of Cantr II to discuss new ideas for the development of the Cantr II game.

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Lumera
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Postby Lumera » Fri Oct 08, 2004 5:20 am

I agree, right now the loner and jack-of-all trades approach is just a little too easy and profitable, which would seem to be the exact opposite of what Cantr is about.

If it were harder to get food, there would be communities built up just around farming and cooking. If it were harder to mine resources, there would be communities built up around mining. And if it were harder to make tools and weapons, while maybe not actual communities, you've have more characters with careers and businesses focusing on producing them. Since none of these people could get very far without the others, it would create a necessity for trade and travel.

Like Spectrus said, living on your own should be hard. In order to make any measurable progress you should have to work and communicate with other people. There may be a few careers, (hunting, sewing, etc.) that a person could reasonably be expected to succeed at on their own, but even those would require obtaining tools from other players.

Growing crops or mining might be possible, but I think it ought to take longer to gather even a negligible amount, making group projects the most desirable. If you had the choice of spending all day growing enough food for the next day, or of working with several of other people to grow enough for the next couple of weeks, plus a surplus to trade, then I think even the most antisocial player would come around and learn to cooperate.

Unless you're dealing with a pre-industralized society, in real life, crops (and most other products) are produced in bulk and then shipped out all over the world, eventually winding up in stores where people can buy them for individual consumption. It may be a complicated system, but how many jobs are created in the process? And how many innovations in technology and communication were created to make everything run more smoothly? In Cantr small, isolated villages will still be perfectly viable and perhaps the simplest way to live, but in order to build a really large, booming city, the government should have to plan and work for their success, not just rely on the nice resources they happen to be sitting on top of or a handful of people doing all the work while the other citizens are inactive most of the time. Cities don't necessarily have to have good resources at all, but people willing to pull their weight and work together should be a must.

And this is already way too long, but (in an attempt to make this post look like it's on topic...) I'll say one more thing about the potato discussion: Cooked food should have a description, and the more "advanced" the dish is the more elaborate it should be. Clothes are basically useless, but people (not all, but quite a few) wear them anyway just because they have nice descriptions and hence have become something of a status symbol. If the clothing was nothing more than the boring name of the item like everything else in Cantr, I bet very few people would bother with it.

That may be the problem with food. If there were descriptions, it might be a bigger deal to buy fancier meals, or to serve them in your restaurant or bakery. Would you rather eat "a piping hot baked potato, drizzled with hot melted butter and topped with a spoonful of sour cream and a sprinkling of chives" or "100g of potatoes"? (And nevermind if Cantr doesn't have butter or sour cream or chives, you get the idea :P )
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Robert
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Postby Robert » Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:16 am

A weight restriction would help cut down on that too, like you can't travel on foot with a certain amount of weight
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The Industriallist
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Postby The Industriallist » Fri Oct 08, 2004 7:31 am

Are you proposing some non-linear additive labor function? Because the productivity of two people farming is exactly twice that on one person farming...you don't actually get higher yields from more people (in cantr, at least).

Also note that cantr is most definitely very much pre-industrial, particularly in outlying areas. But even the largest 'cities' have 2-digit populations, and most of that is outside.

...And what does government have to do with building a city? Only communist governments only build cities...other kinds let them be build and administer them, but don't actually direct production or construction.

Now for the real argument:
The legitimate, sound reason for living alone to be hard is duplication of effort and required capital goods. If uncooked potatoes weren't very efficient to produce (say, 2 days food in a day's farming), but farming potatoes and cooking them is efficient, a lone wolf wanderer is just messed up, since he can't just produce food well wherever he is. A go-it-aloner with a fixed address would still have trouble, since he has to have his own cooking gear and has to fetch his own fuel. Someone who actually functions in society could and most likely would trade for cooked potatoes, since that would be much more efficient.

Non-food businesses are headed that way, as more and more 'annoying' tools and steps are added to production of various weapons, making it pretty impractical nowdays for someone to build up to making themselves a decent bow on their own. I'd like to see the new smithing extended into tool and shield making RSN...
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Spectrus_Wolfus
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Postby Spectrus_Wolfus » Sat Oct 09, 2004 12:26 pm

most things are being set up even if only in theory at present to make it easier for a small group to produce parts for larger machines then trade those for needed supplies. food is still the root of all the troubles but and needs to be re-evaluated so that farming communities can actually trade there food for the parts tools and machine they need instead of having to send out peple to collect everything themselves and build it themselves because there food is worthless to everybody else because anybody else with the materials and tools to build the things the farmers need can easily send one or two people to collect food for another 5-6 people.
NetherSpawn
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Postby NetherSpawn » Mon Oct 11, 2004 4:43 am

Note that in history farming has very rarely actually been profitable. Farmers are usually either in debt or just breaking even.
Putting a minimum on the amount of food harvestable in a project (say, 80 hours worth) would help communal farming and make travelers want to buy rather than harvest food. Of course, it would hurt newspawns, but amost everything does that.
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The Industriallist
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Postby The Industriallist » Mon Oct 11, 2004 5:05 am

NetherSpawn wrote:Note that in history farming has very rarely actually been profitable. Farmers are usually either in debt or just breaking even.

I don't think that's actually true...I think that's more of an artifact of the RL intersection of the agricultural revolution with cultural entrenchment of farming. So IRL we have a market where productivity jumped, but suppliers are so persistantly determined to stay in business (and the government helps...) that the market hasn't adjusted over the course of...um...100 years or so, I think.

Farming could be, if not profitable (at least not without tools or other 'startup cost' type effects), at least economically sound if there was a large enough population that has better things to do than farm food, and actually receive some value for their work. But the section of gainfully employed cantr characters is a rather small subset of the reasonably well RPed characters, which in turn is probably around half of trhe total population, at most.

So building enough actually productive population to have use for all the food produced by the tolerably RPed farming mob isn't going to happen when one person can feed 8 or more, and there are several farmers to each non-farmer.
"If I can be a good crackhead, I can be a good Christian"



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Spectrus_Wolfus
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Postby Spectrus_Wolfus » Mon Oct 11, 2004 9:49 am

farming has been very profitable for people in history. how many people becaome rich in the US from running cattle? australians farmers got rich from running sheep and the broad acre farming of grains and cereal crops.many still do make really good money around the world raising crops and animals for consumption.
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formerly known as hf
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Postby formerly known as hf » Tue Oct 12, 2004 9:54 am

US farmers make a bucket load of cash - because they're heavily subsidised by the government - same in Europe.

Go to Africa of South America and tell the farmers there that farming is really profitable...
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Lumera
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Postby Lumera » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:20 pm

Simple farming by hand on and off while also doing other projects on occasion may provide enough food for your character and a few others, but not necessarily a large surplus to sell. But if you had more advanced tools, fertilizers, etc., and focused solely on growing crops as a career, you could produce a *lot* more. And farmers will be important and even wealthy as long as other characters need to eat; the guy making machines or parts for weapons is of course not going to have time to grow his own food if he hopes to get any other work done.
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formerly known as hf
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Postby formerly known as hf » Tue Oct 12, 2004 2:47 pm

In many, larger, places, there is a huge surplus of food, mostly from years of constant work on harvesters, that it's pretty much just given away.

It would be nice to see food as a less readily availablre resource, but I don't want it so that I spend most of my limited time in Cantr just keeping my characters alive... Making survival too difficult would make Cantr unequal, with those able to spend the full amount of time online being more profitable...
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The government wins.
Antichrist_Online
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Postby Antichrist_Online » Tue Oct 12, 2004 5:21 pm

Reducing the amount collected by half would be less effient than increasing food consumption of raw food to 1.5 times its current level, cookig would take it back to the current level. This doesn't effect survival only the surpluses are reduced.
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Lumera
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Postby Lumera » Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:05 pm

And is amount of time spent playing really that much of a factor? You can check in for five minutes every three or four days and your character still does the exact same amount of work as someone who uses up all their time every day. The only thing affected would be your RP.
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colonel
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Postby colonel » Tue Oct 12, 2004 10:33 pm

Lumera wrote:And is amount of time spent playing really that much of a factor? You can check in for five minutes every three or four days and your character still does the exact same amount of work as someone who uses up all their time every day. The only thing affected would be your RP.


Isn't your rp the most important thing though? I mean isn't that why we play this game?
The Industriallist
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Postby The Industriallist » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:08 pm

Colonel wrote:
Lumera wrote:And is amount of time spent playing really that much of a factor? You can check in for five minutes every three or four days and your character still does the exact same amount of work as someone who uses up all their time every day. The only thing affected would be your RP.


Isn't your rp the most important thing though? I mean isn't that why we play this game?

Not necessarily. Cantr needs RP, but perfectly good RP doesn't call for more than 1 fairly short session per character per day. More than that is only needed for some type of transaction or time-critical conversation. For normal situations, one round of speach and reaction to intervening events per day is plenty...people who try to RP many times a day often end up doing semi-random bits of exibitionism because there's nothing to respond to.
"If I can be a good crackhead, I can be a good Christian"



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colonel
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Postby colonel » Tue Oct 12, 2004 11:19 pm

Well I guess I need a lot more help with my rping then I thought then. LOL.

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