Society

[Pirog]

Junseun>

Sounds like a great experience, and thanks for the support

Keep in mind also that as a (now I'm just guessing, so stop me if I'm wrong) fairly well educated person with a stable background (end of my guesses) you probably feel a lot more secure about the situation compared to if you had been forced to flee your country and come there with your life shattered.

[Pirog]

Hunter>

I'm surprised about your stand I must say...in the political topics you were able to look through the hollow arguments the republicans and other pro-war people used, but here you don't seem to even want to consider looking into the matter before drawing a conclusion.

[The Hunter]

Just face the fact, Pirog. We're probably from different backgrounds, come from different countries. Live in different area's and have different world views. Based on this we have different opinions on this matter.

I live in the central parts of Gothenburg. Although not a neighbourhood with noticebly high amount of foreigners it doesn't stop me from having a lot of contact and communication with foreigners.

Wow. Quite a differnece to where i live right? Anyone called your GF names, is alcohol still sold there. Actually seen foreigners breaking in to cars at night, did your GF ever get mugged by them? Wow. You have some sort of social contact with them. Dang. Well. I do too. Damn, I even work with them. Doesnt mean I know all bout them or the situation they live in.

Racism is based on buying a concept of the world that is based on facts that is either manipulated to make foreigners look bad or gathered by someone who can't put the facts in a context.

Like I explained earlier, my opinion is formed by statistics, personal experiences, and just by looking around. Believe me, stupid Bar talk isn't going to change my views on a subject.

Racism is based on buying a concept of the world that is based on facts that is either manipulated to make foreigners look bad or gathered by someone who can't put the facts in a context.

Racism is based on the concept that cultures are different. The defenition of racism isn't bad in itself. If I'd say: "I really like ABC people, they're cool and I like their ways" that'd be racism too.
My viewpoint is "I've had a lot of bad experiences with XYZ people so I'm going to be more careful with them in the future", well, who can blame me?

But then, you being a swede I hardly think you have the same problems as our country, since yours doesnt even let them in.

I just find that statement odd...do you have anything else than your own imagination as base for that statement?

About 20 % of the Swedish population have foreign background.

Hmmm. All info I could find was about 12 percent. Couldn't even find any figures for the Netherlands. So maybe I'm wrong, so you may dismiss that argument. Still, I do believe the numbers here are a lot greater than the Swedish numbers.

Anyway. I'm apalled that someone like you won't accept my point of view and instead, dismisses it as stupid. It has been dismissed as stupid for a long time now, but finally even our left governments realize something is going completely wrong in our country. A lot of problems could have been prevented in the past that ethnic groups are different and need a different approach.

[The Hunter]

Hunter>

I'm surprised about your stand I must say...in the political topics you were able to look through the hollow arguments the republicans and other pro-war people used, but here you don't seem to even want to consider looking into the matter before drawing a conclusion.

1st of all: this discussion has nothing to do with the discussions you mention.
2nd: Like I have posted many times, I have thought about my viewpoint a lot. And again, it's not based on assumptions or bar-talk. Personal experiences and hard facts, plus a somewhat different defenition of racism is what I base my opinion on.
Besides, we have problems with foreigners here. Whether they are due to foreigners' backgrounds or not does not matter. It's sliding out of control. That was finally accepted when our first right wing (No, not ultra right) party won the elections on a huge scale. Alas, he did't survive long enough as he was shot by someone who just could not accept his views.

@ junesun. Your experience in Chuina does not reflect the situation in the Netherlands. Now, if you were one of many Germans in china, famous for being criminals etc. Would they have treated you that way? I know Germany has simular problems with foreigners.

[Pirog]

Wow. Quite a differnece to where i live right?

Yes, but still I seem to have better contact with foreigners than you...so I don't really see your point.

Anyone called your GF names?

Back when I had a girlfriend Swedish racists sometimes called her "nigger" and other racist remarks...does that mean that I should start hating myself, since I'm white too?

is alcohol still sold there

Alcohol is regulated in Sweden. But a lot of alcohol stores are usually marks of a lowclass neighbourhood, so I don't really see why it would matter...

Actually seen foreigners breaking in to cars at night.

My dad cought a kid breaking into our garage one time.
It was a white kid...

You have some sort of social contact with them. Dang. Well. I do too. Damn, I even work with them. Doesnt mean I know all bout them or the situation they live in.

No, I would actually say that I know more about them than you...since you seem to do nothing more around them than checking to see if your wallet is still there.

Like I explained earlier, my opinion is formed by statistics, personal experiences, and just by looking around. Believe me, stupid Bar talk isn't going to change my views on a subject.

Bar talk?
I'm sure you won't change your view since you have allready decided not to. But having that perspective won't get you very educated...

Racism is based on the concept that cultures are different.

No, racism is actually based on the view of people as genetically different and that some races stand higher than the others.
The cultural part didn't come into focus until the racists lost their main argument when scientists found that there are no genetic differences and that races doesn't exist amongst humans.

If I'd say: "I really like ABC people, they're cool and I like their ways" that'd be racism too.
My viewpoint is "I've had a lot of bad experiences with XYZ people so I'm going to be more careful with them in the future", well, who can blame me?

Judging entire people from what a minor group of individuals do is stupid whether it is positive or negative. Do you see the native Dutch as a mass of people thinking and acting exactly the same too?

Hmmm. All info I could find was about 12 percent. Couldn't even find any figures for the Netherlands. So maybe I'm wrong, so you may dismiss that argument. Still, I do believe the numbers here are a lot greater than the Swedish numbers.

Until you do I won't believe you. Sweden is one of the worlds most multinational nations and are known in Europe for a generous immigration policy. (And didn't you say that only 9 % of your population was foreigners when you talked about crime?)
On the other hand we have huge problems getting the intergrated, and we do have our share of racists here too...I'm not saying that Sweden is better than Holland in that matter.

Anyway. I'm apalled that someone like you won't accept my point of view and instead, dismisses it as stupid.

So if I told you that I hated you you would just accept that without questioning it? Why should I accept your unfair and hateful view of foreigners?

And I dismiss your arguments as stupid because they are. You say that you got your argument from statistics, but you haven't shown any statistics to prove your point...except those figures about criminals, that I'm not even sure is true.

A lot of problems could have been prevented in the past that ethnic groups are different and need a different approach.

And what would that approach be? Not helping them and stand by watching them die from problems that we westerners in most cases started?

[Pirog]

1st of all: this discussion has nothing to do with the discussions you mention.

I think it does. There you could put the discussion in a context and think about the issues from different perspectives...it is clear that you haven't tried, or at least not suceeded, in doing that now.

2nd: Like I have posted many times, I have thought about my viewpoint a lot. And again, it's not based on assumptions or bar-talk. Personal experiences and hard facts, plus a somewhat different defenition of racism is what I base my opinion on.

Just a question...do you have any problems at all with native Dutch criminals in your part of town?

Besides, we have problems with foreigners here. Whether they are due to foreigners' backgrounds or not does not matter. It's sliding out of control. That was finally accepted when our first right wing (No, not ultra right) party won the elections on a huge scale. Alas, he did't survive long enough as he was shot by someone who just could not accept his views.

First of all, I would definately call Pim Fortuyn ultra right wing.

And secondly, yes it is obvious that immigration causes a lot of problems for most countries in the western world...but that doesn't mean that it is the immigrants themselves who are the problem.
During the industrialisation when people moved in from the country side to the heavy industries there was a lot of similar problems...is that because country folks are ""backward criminal trash"?
No, it's because a lot of people ended up in a new environment that they didn't control and felt frustration and desparation.
Putting all the blame on foreigners and calling them "backward criminal trash", when they come from all over the world, have a more varied background than the native population and come from all kinds of living conditions IS stupid.

You should think about that a lot of the immigrants who come to Europe are well educated. If the Europeans would be better at putting them to work instead of housing them in low class residental areas and forcing doctors and enginers to work shitty jobs that are beneath them we would make a huge profit, considering that we wouldn't have to pay for their education.

[The Hunter]

I gotta go to bed so I'll keep it short.

I have bad experience in a non dutch-ethnic neighbourhood. Crime figures are going trhough the roof because of non-dutchmen. Yerah, even the police here admitted it, they even mobilized a new task because of that. Again, my viewpoint is bassed on this, amongst others.

Lombok-Utrecht is not Gothenborg. Things are different. Come and take a look at my neighbourhood, and weep.

On a smaller scale I don't care about what ethnicity someone is. I buy fruit and veggies at local turkish shopowners. I generalize, yes, but nothing wrong with that. You gan't get a decent view when looking through a micro lense all of the time. True, criminals are a minority in those ethnic groups, yet a minority a lot greater than our dutch criminla minority.

So your garage has been broken by a white kid. Read my examples in my previous post and ask yourself: can I compare this?

Bar talk?
I'm sure you won't change your view since you have allready decided not to. But having that perspective won't get you very educated...

This is where I start getting offended. If you think your arguments not backed up by experiences liike mine are going to change my mind, then you must be really simple. Using my examples and my argumens I'm not going to change your views either. That's why this is called a discussion, discussions rarely change peoples opinions, merely steer them into a different direction. Since this discussion isn't going to change your views, I could just as wel call your opinion cut in stone. And don't tell me that because you're "educated" or whatever you may call it, that you're alway's right. Besides, education has nothing to do with this.
Now dojn't go telling me that because of your education you know better. Your university isn't my neigbourhood. Simple.

It's very simple, and i have tried to explain this many times now. We're from different backgrounds, countries etc. You do not have my experiences in this matter, therefore you do not know what I'm talking about. Because you never had a problem it does NOT mean the problem does not exist. The problem is there allright.

We've been discussing this and are nowhere near agreeing with eachother. Which is OK as a discussion is merely an exchange of opinions. Both our views are different fro eachother and quite frankly, I think you're right. I won't change my views on the foreigners iI'm talking about since too much has happened. Too many bad experiences. Maybe I'm just unlucky, maybe this is the worst neighbouhood in Europe, maybe all "bad" foreigners live here, maybe... But still ones view on the world is based on the experiences one has and therefore can NOT be dismissed as stupid.

I wish you a lot of good experiences with foreigners, and damn. I wish you were right in this entire discussion, but I believe the future shall prove you wrong. But we're already looking forward to move away from this damned place. Like all Dutchmen in this neighbourhood are doing, people with the same experiences and views as me. I hope to watch this neigbourhood turn into a ghetto from a distance instead of being in the middle of it.

Anyway. I'm a racist. Don't prejudice nor shun me for it. I dare speak up for my views, may they be right or wrong. I respect your point of view, respect mine, damnit!

[Pirog]

I generalize, yes, but nothing wrong with that. You gan't get a decent view when looking through a micro lense all of the time.

But this is the real problem.
It IS wrong to generalize. If you would stop doing that and see the criminals in your community purely as criminals instead of letting their skin color be an issue you wouldn't support an ideology that hurts a huge amount of people every day.

And it is a bit ironic that you talk about viewing things through a micro lense. I assume you do this as a point to me having an academic perspective, but by generalizing people you are the one looking through the micro lense. I'm trying to see the whole perspective.

So your garage has been broken by a white kid. Read my examples in my previous post and ask yourself: can I compare this?

No, it was meant as an ironic gesture. From the crime I have witnessed it has almost always been white people involved...just as you point out that I have a different perspective than me because I don't live in an area with a majority of immigrants I tried to point out that white people commit crime too.

This is where I start getting offended. If you think your arguments not backed up by experiences liike mine are going to change my mind, then you must be really simple.

I think it is wrong to base opinions about millions of people you don't know or have ever met from your own personal experiences, so we have different perspectives about who is simple I guess...

Using my examples and my argumens I'm not going to change your views either. That's why this is called a discussion, discussions rarely change peoples opinions, merely steer them into a different direction.

I don't agree. If you would convince me with arguments I would find believable I would probably change my view.
I have changed my political view a lot because of discussions with other people. I was right wing when I was younger, but I have moved more to the left wing every year now when I have started educating myself on a higher scale, and at the same time grown old enough to start having contacts with people from others parts of the town.

And don't tell me that because you're "educated" or whatever you may call it, that you're alway's right.

I'm not. That would be truly idiotic.

Besides, education has nothing to do with this.

Believe me, it has. Education is always important in issues like this.
Obviously I have learned much from having lectures about the problems between different ethical groups, about the historical background making people fear or dislike foreigners etc.
How can you ever hope to deny that such knowledge matters?

Now dojn't go telling me that because of your education you know better. Your university isn't my neigbourhood. Simple.

We have a different perspective here. As I said earlier, I don't think it is wise to use personal experiences with immigrants as a base for judging millions of people you haven't met.
If the discussion was about how life is to live in a community with a majority of immigrants you would know best, but the discussion is about racism in general and I actually think your personal experiences from your obviously bad neighbourhood serves as a handicap for you.

You seem too caught up in your every day problems to be able to see the larger perspective. It's like if you are pro war or not. If you had relatives who died in 11/9 you would probably have a lesser chance to make a good decision about supporting the war or not.

Which is OK as a discussion is merely an exchange of opinions. Both our views are different fro eachother and quite frankly, I think you're right. I won't change my views on the foreigners iI'm talking about since too much has happened. Too many bad experiences. Maybe I'm just unlucky, maybe this is the worst neighbouhood in Europe, maybe all "bad" foreigners live here, maybe... But still ones view on the world is based on the experiences one has and therefore can NOT be dismissed as stupid.

See what I wrote above.
I find it confusing about the part where you think I am right though...do you think that I'm right but stick to a false impression? That seems odd...

And saying you are stupid may be going to far, but it is uneducated.
I'm not saying that you are uneducated about everything, but when it comes to immigration problems you obviously aren't capable of seeing it in a larger perspective.

I wish you a lot of good experiences with foreigners, and damn. I wish you were right in this entire discussion, but I believe the future shall prove you wrong.

Thanks. But it won't matter if I have good or bad experiences with them.
I have allready had a lot of both good and bad experiences with foreigners, but I judge people on an individual level.

But we're already looking forward to move away from this damned place. Like all Dutchmen in this neighbourhood are doing, people with the same experiences and views as me. I hope to watch this neigbourhood turn into a ghetto from a distance instead of being in the middle of it.

I'm sure the foreigners stuck in your neighbourhood feel the same way...don't you?

And I'm sorry...but I will never respect racism.
Perhaps it is because the person I love more than anything else has a foreign background, or just based on my opinion of racism as unfair and evil, but I can't respect or accept racism.
It isn't even a matter of opinion...even if I would want to respect your view I wouldn't be able to.

[The Industriallist]

>Pirog
I kind of switched who I was addressing somewhere in the middle of my post. The beginning and the end were addressed to you, more or less, but the middle wasn't. It was too long for me to keep it organized.

And the think/talk difference I pointed out, in light of the quote I had attached, is really important, actually.

I have never heard an intelligent stand for racism...not in my personal life, not in politics, not on the internet...nowhere.

Let me give you one. It probably is wrong, but at least there is some legitimacy behind it:
Contrary to your claims, there are genetic differences between so-called races. Some asian stocks have a high prevalence of lactose intolerance. Some african groups have high rates of sickle-cell anemia. I don't know about assorted european, but at a guess, Albinism?
It is possible that some genetic determiners of inteligence or behavior also vary between genetic groups. Since it would be nearly impossible to identify such genes, it wouldn't be surprising that no one has found them.

As I said, I don't have any belief that this justification is borne out by facts, or ascribe to it myself. But it isn't something you can claim to be 'proven false'. Just letting a little light into your anti-racist mindset. Anti-racism has propaganda too
All people are not created equal. You just can't easily tell them apart.
>/Pirog

Would either of you be willing to state what aspect identifies one of these suspicious persons to you?
This is intended for Seko and/or The Hunter. An answer is requested.

Anyway. I'm a racist. Don't prejudice nor shun me for it. I dare speak up for my views, may they be right or wrong. I respect your point of view, respect mine, damnit!

I hardly know where to start. So I'll start with a petty language point. You prejudiced yourself. No one else can control your prejudices.

Now, more seriously:
"Don't prejudice nor shun me for it": So, shunning people based on 'race', which you haven't defined yet, is ok, but shunning them for opinions is bad?
"I respect your point of view, respect mine, damnit!": I don't pass out free respect. Actually, maybe I do, if your posts are what respect looks like.

Now, other things: Racism would mean that you don't like them because of, um, the way they look, I guess? What you have seems to be nativism. That's fun. It's what the KKK switched to when racism got too boring alone.

"We give them safety, shelter and the needs to live":
What have you ever given the foreigners? I don't see where they owe you any gratitude. If your government is giving them things, and you don't like it, vote against welfare.

Discount statistics unless you work out all the breakups that might be relevant for yourself. They are so easy to manipulate, even by accident, that it's scary. Personal experiences mostly justify personal dislikes...I don't see any reason to dislike an individual you know nothing about.

I won't even argue that some of the 'foreigners' (who are also third generation, so their parents are technically natives) aren't "backward, criminal trash". There are plenty of people in the world like that (many of them natives of my country for more generations than that...), and some of them happen to be immigrants. I will admit as a possibility, though not as a fact, that a disproportionate number of them may be turks and/or muslim. But...that has what to do with a random man(or woman) you've never seen before, but think is a turk?

[Nick]

I have no problems with gays, lesbians, etc, but I dont know how I would react if I was suddenly surrounded by them, like if there was suddenly a large number of them in my school.

Imagine it being like you were sitting in a class with all brown haired people. Or all blonde. Or all red. A persons sexuality is genetic and pre-determined.

Remember all humans at one time believed the world was flat. Racism is kind of like that. God created all of us. He knows we're all different. The idea that one human would not like another human because of a genetic differance is insane and defies the laws of common sense. Racism is a completly made up human belief that has been passed on generation to generation and is not accurate. All it takes is for one person at a time to break the mold. Break the theory that the word is flat, for this generation.

Two things I got to disagree with you there.
1)If homosexuality was in the genes, it would only make sense that it wouldnt last long. If that was the case, theoretically there should be less and less homosexuals every generation. I am more of a freudian on the subject, that everyone has the capability for both, but its merely a matter of life experience that makes you choose one or the other, or both.

2)In a rant about accepting different beliefs perhaps you shouldnt state God stuff as true...

I must admit, I am very suprised how open people are on this internet forum. And dont everyone think that noone reading these posts is a homophobe. If I was a certainly wouldnt post on this topic, for fear of being yelled at by the majority (about being homophobic, not about being homosexual; if I was gay I would probably post here about it, as it seems as though the mood here is accepting).

And thats how it is. I have homosexual friends, homophobic friends, guy friends, girl friends, christian freinds, buddhist friends, it doesnt really matter. People can have their own views and opinions, as long as they dont enforce it on other people. The only thing I HATE is people who try to make their opinions law, to refer back to the anti-gay marriage lobbying. What the hell is that about anyway?

"Oh gee, if we make it so that way the fags cant marry, then they will stop being gay"

How does that make sense? To anybody?

"We cant let them marry, marriage is a sacred institution"

Give me a break. Over half of marriages end in divorce. You can get drunk, married, and divorced all in the same couple of days in some places. And again, thats making laws based on RELIGIOUS beliefs. A little thing called disestablishment ring a bell, rednecks?

Another thing I dont like is when people say stuff like;

"Gay people (or any other group) are much more (fill in the blanks)".

Doesnt matter if its a compliment or an insult, its simply not true. I have met gay people I didnt like. Not because theyre gay, but because I dont like them.

I must admit, however, that I would feel uncomfortable spending the night at a homosexual friends house. Call me homophobic, but thats just me. And it soooo doesnt matter what your sexual orientation is, ESPECIALLY on this here forum, because I am willing to bet money that I will never have intimate relations with anyone on this forum, gay or straight .

[Pirog]

Let me give you one...

I have heard that argument before and the response made to it.
Such genetical differences stand for a very, very small part. I don't have the figure in my head, but it was so small that scientists didn't find it worth taking in account. (It was still mentioned though.)

Taken out of it's context it is an intelligent response, but put in the context where it is proved that genetical differences vary as much between people of same ethnical background as with other "races" it really doesn't stand.

The same genetic differences can be found amongst for example Europeans too. For some reason red heads have a natural weakness towards anaesthetics for example...

[Pirog]

)If homosexuality was in the genes, it would only make sense that it wouldnt last long. If that was the case, theoretically there should be less and less homosexuals every generation. I am more of a freudian on the subject, that everyone has the capability for both, but its merely a matter of life experience that makes you choose one or the other, or both.

The problem is the view of homosexuality as something unnatural.
The term homosexuality is very new...longer back in human history they didn't even reflect over things like that.
In ancient Greece for example it was common for men to have a male lover while married to women.

It isn't even clear that humans only have two genders.
(I'm not talking about the physical genders now...)

[The Industriallist]

I have no problems with gays, lesbians, etc, but I dont know how I would react if I was suddenly surrounded by them, like if there was suddenly a large number of them in my school.

Imagine it being like you were sitting in a class with all brown haired people. Or all blonde. Or all red. A persons sexuality is genetic and pre-determined.

Remember all humans at one time believed the world was flat. Racism is kind of like that. God created all of us. He knows we're all different. The idea that one human would not like another human because of a genetic differance is insane and defies the laws of common sense. Racism is a completly made up human belief that has been passed on generation to generation and is not accurate. All it takes is for one person at a time to break the mold. Break the theory that the word is flat, for this generation.

Two things I got to disagree with you there.
1)If homosexuality was in the genes, it would only make sense that it wouldnt last long. If that was the case, theoretically there should be less and less homosexuals every generation. I am more of a freudian on the subject, that everyone has the capability for both, but its merely a matter of life experience that makes you choose one or the other, or both.

Actually, there are ways that it coud be genetic, as far as that goes. A recessive allele would be the easiest, especially if it came with some beneficial dominant feature (I read an artical on that one). Or even some more complicated groub-of-genes thing with possible environmental influence. Though I think that you're probably right, and I'm no expert. *shrug*

The only thing I HATE is people who try to make their opinions law, to refer back to the anti-gay marriage lobbying. What the hell is that about anyway?

"Oh gee, if we make it so that way the fags cant marry, then they will stop being gay"

How does that make sense? To anybody?

"We cant let them marry, marriage is a sacred institution"

Give me a break. Over half of marriages end in divorce. You can get drunk, married, and divorced all in the same couple of days in some places. And again, thats making laws based on RELIGIOUS beliefs. A little thing called disestablishment ring a bell, rednecks?

Um...now here is something I got from a group I don't agree with (some christian preists. I don't even remember the denominition), but the arguement is good(in my own words):
All legislation is moral legislation. The basic concept of legislation is to enforce morals. The only question is which morals to legislate.

Gay-marriage lobbying is just as much attempted 'moral legislation' as anti-gay-marriage lobbying. The only difference is that one group's morals come out of their reading of the bible, and the other...I'm not sure where, exactly, but I have to say I prefer it.

Another thing I dont like is when people say stuff like;

"Gay people (or any other group) are much more (fill in the blanks)".

Doesnt matter if its a compliment or an insult, its simply not true.

That's an assumption too, you know. But most such statements aren't going to be based on any sort of valid studies.

[Nick]

Oh, so now were on racism, are we?

Well, I am white. My best friend is black. I guess I can say that I am not a "racist" although that word in itself is rather vague...

I have noticed, that at least in Canada, noone would DARE ever say nigger or be otherwise racist to a black person, at least while they are there. But middle-eastern people? Fair game. It kind of saddens me that all this effort on eliminating racism only made it so we found another skin color to make fun of.

One of my friends said this "I am not racist, I just hate paks"

Dont make sense to me, let me know if it does to you.

Simply; there are assholes and good people of all skin colors, religions, and sexual orientations. Learn that there is only one way to get to know someone, and its not by looking at who theyve dated or what color their skin is. Its to get to know them by talking to them.

[The Industriallist]

Let me give you one...

I have heard that argument before and the response made to it.
Such genetical differences stand for a very, very small part. I don't have the figure in my head, but it was so small that scientists didn't find it worth taking in account. (It was still mentioned though.)

Taken out of it's context it is an intelligent response, but put in the context where it is proved that genetical differences vary as much between people of same ethnical background as with other "races" it really doesn't stand.

The same genetic differences can be found amongst for example Europeans too. For some reason red heads have a natural weakness towards anaesthetics for example...

I said there would be analogs in assorted european lines, I just couldn't pull them to mind.

Now, remember something someone (I think The Hunter) said about 98% overlap between humans and chimps? With a little research, I could probably pick 10 (or fewer) bases in your genome to change so you would never get passed 2 or 4 cells. I likely could find less to reduce you to a drooling idiot. Many debilitating diseases come from single-base mutations. Out of the number of bases there, that's so few they might literally not detect it at all, and if they did, well, most of the things in the human genome haven't been studied yet.

It is a proven fact (by basic observation) that certain groups (some of which are subsets of so-called races) are true-breeding in certain physical features. There is no way anyone could prove that they are not similarly true-breeding for mental features.

Now, this is an astoundingly poor reason to claim that racism is scientific. But it isn't that much worse than claiming the findings you mention disprove any claims of genetic difference. It's easy to misrepresent things other than statistics, too...

And remember, those scientists would have unquestionably been in a shitload of trouble if they had said anything else without cast-iron proof.

PLEASE NOTE: I do not uphold the truth of any form of racism! But I can't let abuse of reality get by like this either. I don't usually argue for. Against is much easier