New Skill system

[toon]

Before I start, I know that this would probably take more work and time than many people have to offer right now, but I'd like to suggest it anyways.

Really, I'd like to add to the system we already have. I'd like to suggest that we have the current skill system of our talents, like it has been for a long time, but I'd also like to suggest an attribute type of system. These attributes would include things like a person's strength, energy, accuracy, and speed. Let me remind you before I explain this system that this is a rough idea. It won't be perfect, but I believe it will make the game better.

Now, I would like to suggest that these attributes all start at zero as a newspawn. I do beleive everyone agrees that it's kind of sad to have a newspawn who looks like he's lifted weights for 60 years. While things like swordsmanship and carpentry can come natural to someone, strength isn't a talent. It has to be built up by a person over time, so it only makes sense that every person would begin at the same spot.

I'd also like to suggest an energy related attribute that would govern the area of fatigue. I like this idea because it takes fighting away from relying solely on the fighting skill and strength. Right now in cantr, I know my characters are about exhausted after hitting 2 or 3 people, but having an attribute that could raise how much you could do before getting tired would add a whole new element to fighting.

Speed has been a topic of discussion before, and I've heard it is on the way, but I've yet to see it. I'm suggesting that we finally get the speed attribute working and make it to where you start out slow. This might discourage spawn thieves and encourage characters to get settled into a town before leaving.

Accuracy is a skill I'd like to suggest also, whether it turns out as a talent or an attribure. It irritates me when I have a character who is strong and a talented fighter, but just about every time I try to hit someone, I miss. The sad thing about it? I can't change it. Having an attribute that could let you take control of that weakness would make sense. If a person grabs a weapon, but doesn't know if they can hit anything in battle, are they really that helpful?

Now I'd like to suggest that these attributes be on a 10-15 point system that is much easier to raise than the talent skills. By keeping the "level" cap low, it ensures that the game won't become all about grinding and leveling, but hopefully it will ad to the RP.
Now, I don't remember if I had anything else to say. Feel free to point out any flaws and maybe we can work them out and make the game better for everyone.

[EchoMan]

Now, I would like to suggest that these attributes all start at zero as a newspawn. I do beleive everyone agrees that it's kind of sad to have a newspawn who looks like he's lifted weights for 60 years. While things like swordsmanship and carpentry can come natural to someone, strength isn't a talent. It has to be built up by a person over time, so it only makes sense that every person would begin at the same spot.

Newspawns have had 20 years of life to gain this practice.

Interesting ideas. I need to think about it before making up my mind though.

[danizappa]

Interesting ideias about battle mechanics for a generic game, but not really how cantr should work, nor what cantr needs.

[toon]

Yes, they have had 20 years. a couple, a person would be too young to work. How long does it take you to go from weak to average strength as it is in the game now? It takes so long to get stronger now, in twenty years a char might be able to go from weak to strong, if they practiced every day... maybe. I don't know too much about the game mechanics and how long it takes to get from one level of strength to the next, but it feels like it takes forever.

[EchoMan]

Yes, it takes a long time. Because A) Cantr is a slow paced game, and B) Cantr is a long-term game.

[Snickie]

I sort of like this idea. Sort of.

I disagree that strength should be one of the attributes because it's not realistic the way you put it. (Then again, what percentage of the mechanics or anything in Cantr is "realistic"?) I know people at my school who are less than 20 years who (boast that they) can bench 375 lb (that's 170.1 kg) which is more than a Cantriian weighs (60kg = 132.3lb), even when they're carrying 15kg (33lb) of stuff.

I think the scale should be increased to a bigger range than just 0-15, like 1-100 instead (so we have more room for decimal values). Perhaps each newspawn spawns with these attributes at no higher than 15 or 20 (except for accuracy, which would start at 50%). Additionally, the rate at which these skills go up should differ from newspawn to newspawn, which can be determined using the character genetics like skills and everything else. One person might pick it up faster than another, for instance.

Accuracy should be tied to fighting, but in some obscure way -- an awkward fighter shouldn't make 90% of their hits. Accuracy should include dodging, and each start at 50% chance of success and increase in an exponential function (k^x where k is a constant between 0 and 1 determined by the character's spawning genetics, and x is the skill level) so that maybe in the beginning your skill can go up faster but as you get better and better it takes longer and longer to achieve the next percentage. This leaves room for improvement always and ensures that one will never make/dodge all their hits.

I don't really know what to say about "energy" because I don't completely understand what exactly you want energy to do, other than reduce tiredness from attacking other people. Could you elaborate please?

And I'm going to guess that by "speed" you mean walking speed between towns. I like this. But how are you supposed to train that other than by doing the thing players seem to hate most -- walking?

These attributes (except perhaps accuracy) should deteriorate with disuse starting after, say, one year, at a linear rate. It's easy to counter using the game mechanics, except for maybe speed, but if you're in a wealthy enough town then you probably have a car or limousine or something fancy, so speed won't be a problem anyway. It allows us to see the fruits of laziness!

But most importantly IMO, if these things ever get implemented, I am completely against the player being able to see them explicitly on the character page.


Edit: So, looking at the graphs, I'm realizing that my math is weird. So, to try to explain it better, the higher the skill you have, the exponentially more you have to work to increase it even more. Something like k^x where k is the learning constant determined upon the spawning genetics of the character and x is the current skill level. K would probably lie somewhere between 1 and 2. Does that make more sense to anybody?



Of course....this is all assuming we go with it.

[toon]

Thank you, snickie. I appriciate the concstructive criticism. My main goal of this post was to suggest a seperate type of skill system and to use example of what could be on it. The strength in real life and strength in cantr are not even close to what they should be. While people can be born less suited for physical work, everyone can get stronger. The system like it is now only has 3 levels of strength and it takes forever to raise strength up from weak to average. A however many point system would beter describe a persons strength and also leave room open for new items such as weights and all that.

I agree if this system is implemented things like accuracy and speed and whatever else should not be seen as they are not physical traits. I want to thank you again for helping to make the idea better and hopefully the game also.

[EchoMan]

Thank you, snickie. I appriciate the concstructive criticism. My main goal of this post was to suggest a seperate type of skill system and to use example of what could be on it. The strength in real life and strength in cantr are not even close to what they should be. While people can be born less suited for physical work, everyone can get stronger. The system like it is now only has 3 levels of strength and it takes forever to raise strength up from weak to average. A however many point system would beter describe a persons strength and also leave room open for new items such as weights and all that.

The levels of strength you are referring to, are five. And they are just a textual representation of a span of the actual strength values. There is a 20% (off the whole scale) difference between lowest 'average strength' and highest 'average strength', but they are both displayed as 'average strength'. Every single sparring, hunting etc, increases your strength, but doesn't necessarily change the textual representation of it.

Whenever strength is used in calculations, it is the number behind that is used, not the textual representation.

[toon]

Well, it'd be nice if at least the player was able to see exactly how strong he/she is even if the other people only see weak, average or strong. I did not know about the different values behind each. Thank you for the information.

[EchoMan]

I'm not sure I agree. You are writing about realism vs. Cantr a few posts above. How strong are you IRL? Do you discribe your physical strength with a number, or as a word?

[Doug R.]

The skill system currently under discussion in the GAB starts all newspawns out with the same skills, as you suggest should be done with strength. That system also incorporates multiple skills into tasks, ensuring that no one skill dominates any one area.

[toon]

Well that sounds promising. I can't wait to hear more about it, Doug. Thank you.

[Surly]

This is one of the main ideas I will be trying to drive forward over the next few weeks. Extensive discussion has already taken place, it's a case of getting it to a workable proposal that our Programmers can deliver. I don't see why this can't happen fairly soon, even if implementation takes much longer.

So watch this space!

[RedQueen.exe]

I don't understand what improvement this suggestion offers.

Additionally, the following quote makes no sense. Strength has every bit an innate component as anything else does. It can come just as "naturally" to someone as carpentry or swordsmanship, and in fact, probably much more so.

While things like swordsmanship and carpentry can come natural to someone, strength isn't a talent. It has to be built up by a person over time, so it only makes sense that every person would begin at the same spot.

[danizappa]

If the game changes towards: all chars start with the same skills, we will loose one of cantr's biggest charms - the "genetical skill" heritage system.