Clarification of IC/OOC Machine Knowledge

[The Industriallist]

My understanding so far is that characters inherently know the costs and tool requirements of everything under the 'manufacturing' menus. But what do they know about their uses?

Is it OOC to know that an oven is used to bake bread, for example? If so, there are certainly a lot of CR breaches out there...but if not, why don't the more esoteric machines come with function information? I can (OOC) guess that an oven is for cooking, but untill I build one, I don't know (IC or OOC) what I can do with an apothecary table, for example.

I think the functions of machines (and tools) should be declared OOC information untill discovered IC. Of course, this will create a lot of CR infractions... The only (self-consistent) alternative is to release a listing of all 'machine projects' that is considered to be inherent character knowledge.

[Bowser]

I understand your point of view and agree with you on some level, but here is where we differ....

I believe in the first 20 years of our lives, we found out that we need to cook meat. We understand that to build a structure, we need wood or stone or other sturdy resource in the area.

It does become a stretch to say we know how to build a limo off the tops of our heads, but this is definately a gray area that is not easily defined.

Maybe look at the list of tools to build and things to manufacture as something we figure out to fulfill a need. I can rip wood from a tree, but it takes a while, so I decide perhaps a sharp object could be used. I sit and think, maybe I can use wood as a handle and pound some metal into an axe.

So yes, I do know how to build things and what the things I build are used for, the reason being that a need existed and a solution was found. I find this a better way to play than saying a person just built a primative smelter at random to see what it would do if the stones were arranged a certainway... and poof, iron was made.

Or someone built a stone table for the heck of it and found it was good for smashing something.

[nitefyre]

Well now that i think about it again, I ask myself, why the hell set handicaps up for my characters? Not like it really has much conceivable rp purpose.

So I agree with Bowser, chars should know how to make anything they want, due to their pre 20 education. Even a general idea what it is, like does it make stuff like machines, or move stuff like vehicles, etc.

[Lone Wolf]

I agree with Bowser, and Nitefyre, but I'd like to see the more complex machines, harder to build. Maybe they could be of a different level, and when you see the machine in the "build" menu, it doesn't tell you what tools you need, unless you have them already. Then someone could write these things down and develop instruction books for machines.

[Pirog]

I stand on the other side of Lone Wolf, wanting clear desciptions about what the different types of machines and vehicles do.

Since there is little real life logic behind the machines and vehicles I don't see the point in having to figure it out...
(like a tandem bike carrying 75000 grams while a person can only carry 15000 grams)

[Revanael]

Bear in mind how much a person weighs... You'd be surprised how little you can carry with two people on one of those bikes.

[Pirog]

Yes, I know...but it is still something you can't figure out by RL logic.

[The Industriallist]

You're missing the point...There are tools and machines no-one knows the in-game functions of (including the stone table, until you read the forum or hear from another character). You couldn't necesarily tell what they are for even with intense OOC research. But I have absolutely no doubt that once a PLAYER knows the use of a machine, they assume all their characters know. That means there is 'universal' knowledge that can only be obtained through the game...which defeats the Capital Rule.

To maintain the capital rule, either all machine (and tool) functions have to become experimental knowledge, or some set of them have to be released as official 'common knowledge'.

P.S.: By tool functions, I mean the tools needed for machine projects or harvesting projects...since the manufacture menu is common knowledge, tool needs for manufacturing must be also.

[nitefyre]

You're missing the point...There are tools and machines no-one knows the in-game functions of (including the stone table, until you read the forum or hear from another character). You couldn't necesarily tell what they are for even with intense OOC research. But I have absolutely no doubt that once a PLAYER knows the use of a machine, they assume all their characters know. That means there is 'universal' knowledge that can only be obtained through the game...which defeats the Capital Rule.

To maintain the capital rule, either all machine (and tool) functions have to become experimental knowledge, or some set of them have to be released as official 'common knowledge'.

P.S.: By tool functions, I mean the tools needed for machine projects or harvesting projects...since the manufacture menu is common knowledge, tool needs for manufacturing must be also.

There really isn't a single method in cantr to clarify except another addition to the so called single rule capitol rule. There's the green, the red and most of it is the grey. (ok fine, logically that doesn't make sense, but just proves the point) Same thing for roleplay and everything else. Use your better judgement and don't go to the extremes of being stupid dealing, what does a carrot harvester do? Or so intelligent that at spawn, you go chasing for iron, limestone and coal or the likes....

[The Industriallist]

But when experienced PLAYERS have IC advantages over inexperienced players on the level of 'what is the best weapon' or 'how do I make iron' something is wrong. That just contradicts the intentions of cantr.

And there really is no need for 'fuzzy rules' here, that I can see.

[SekoETC]

I think people should use weapons that fit their physiques best or look impressive. ..Good thing would be if you could get better in using a weapon in time and make more damage, so that a skillful assassin with a knife would be far more deadlier than a child wielding a crossbow.

[Pirog]

You're missing the point...There are tools and machines no-one knows the in-game functions of (including the stone table, until you read the forum or hear from another character.

Yes....that IS my point. Who the hell would build for example a stone table if they didn't have a clue of what to do with it?
Not even inventors work in that way, just puzzling things together in the hope of creating something...they always have a theory behind it, even if the inventions spawned are usually not what they planned from the beginning.

[Revanael]

Exactly what Pirog just said. But in different words to make it harder for anyone but me to understand.

I never was good at explaining things.

[1959 Apache]

Who the hell would build for example a stone table if they didn't have a clue of what to do with it?
Not even inventors work in that way, just puzzling things together in the hope of creating something...they always have a theory behind it, even if the inventions spawned are usually not what they planned from the beginning.

I beg to differ, here. Some inventors work by trial and error. That is what research is all about. Do this and that and see what happens. In Cantr, building things that you have no clue what they are for is like that. In a certain forest, a certain powerful leader has a collection of machines that is sure to be unrivaled. He doesn't even know what some of them are for, but he had them built, trying to figure it out. I don't see how this is using OOC info to sidestep the CR. I'm sure some players do build specific machines, knowing what they do, even though their character is a newspawn who never spoke to anyone or read a note. That's different.

[The Industriallist]

Who the hell would build for example a stone table if they didn't have a clue of what to do with it?
Not even inventors work in that way, just puzzling things together in the hope of creating something...they always have a theory behind it, even if the inventions spawned are usually not what they planned from the beginning.

I beg to differ, here. Some inventors work by trial and error. That is what research is all about. Do this and that and see what happens. In Cantr, building things that you have no clue what they are for is like that. In a certain forest, a certain powerful leader has a collection of machines that is sure to be unrivaled. He doesn't even know what some of them are for, but he had them built, trying to figure it out. I don't see how this is using OOC info to sidestep the CR. I'm sure some players do build specific machines, knowing what they do, even though their character is a newspawn who never spoke to anyone or read a note. That's different.

What that leader is doing fits in perfectly with the 'no information' option. I admire the player for hampering themselves by not useing OOC knowledge. I simply meant to point out that many players take the 'build what you need' path, which as yet isn't clearly ruled in or out. At least so far as I know.