Religions

[BrentW]

Sooner or later I will get to reading this thread. Anyways Religion is the base all major evil. Wars countless wars are from it.
How about the black death? The church was like clean is bad. Karma is a bitch about that one it seems. Religion is on it way out.
Ok sure there are still billions out there of one religion or the other however the ideas reinforcing them are starting to wear thin in the 21st century.
Ignorance is slowing starting to vanish among the more educated nations at least and religion is mostly ignorance. We had to explain why we are here where we go when we die so on and so forth. They also helped keep law and order before we had real laws cops jails criminal system in general. Religion helped a lot but I think it did a lot worse over all. Thats just me.

[Doug R.]

I think replying to threads you haven't read is the base all major evil. Or at least up there. That's just me.

The misapplication, perversion, and ignorance of religious teachings are the cause of everything you cite. Religion doesn't kill people, people do, and that wouldn't have changed if religion never existed.

[Joshuamonkey]

Anyways Religion is the base all major evil.

That would be Satan. Anyway, not all religions are the same, and neither are all people. Probably most of the violence was from Catholicism and Islam, and well, that's them. But I really think that people can be bad regardless of religion, and there's plenty of nonreligious meanies and organized badness separate from religion. I think that we should at least help the good people find truth.

religion is mostly ignorance

Eh, to me, religion is knowledge, and religion, at least in the case of Judaism and Mormonism, encourages secular education as well.

They also helped keep law and order before we had real laws cops jails criminal system in general.

Religion can help keep law and order a lot more than cop and jails in some cases. Plus, laws still allow drinking, smoking, and immorality.

Thats just me.

And it's a reasonable opinion. I think there are many who agree.

[Alladinsane]

I am a news junkie...I have noticed that the viewer polls taken on different channels seem to be an almost perfect representation of the targetted demographic who typically view that channel....cnn polls are primarily tilted towards the left and foxnews polls are targetted towards the right. It makes sense since (homonym alert!) the people watching those channels tend to be the ones taking those polls, heck, if we weren't watching them, we probably wouldn't even know the polls exist. So when foxnews says 59% of the people dislike Obama, I say 'yeah right'...the same thing applies when a poll results the exact opposite on CNN...."yeah right". Well sir, I would humbly suggest that the same kind of thing may apply to many internet sites, especially ones of the dating genre. While there are some (I know a couple who met on eharmony), I would suggest to you that the typical Christian doesn't usually stumble upon those sites.

Your point about polling (especially self-selecting polls such as on the internet) is well-taken Except that the long-form Pew study wasn't self-selecting. It was a random phone survey conducted with 3412 people. Their methodology is clearly laid out in the report. And Pew Research Center (as opposed to the Pew Charitable Trust) doesn't have any agenda-- religious, political or otherwise. They are widely regarded as a neutral think tank. They didn't set out with any pre-conceived notions of who would know more about religions than other, and the questions asked were fact based, so it's really kind of bizarre you would take issue with the findings, simply because you don't like them. Did you actually read the report?

Think about it this way -- your family is more the exception than the rule. Many who profess a particular religious belief aren't as well-informed, because they don't study the Bible regularly nor attend church regularly. So they drag down the average. Indeed, look at this statistic from the report. Those who described religion as very important in their lives and attended worship services regularly scored an average of 17.0 questions right of 32. Those who had a low level of religious commitment (and presumably this includes virtually all of the atheists/agnostics) scored an average of 16.0 questions right, while those with an intermediate amount of religiosity (presumably the majority of those professing a religious belief) only 14.8 .

You're making an unwarranted assumption that agnostics/atheists haven't "picked up [the] book". But in my experience, most have, and just don't like what they see. Even you must admit that ultimately religion is ultimately based on faith, and for some people, that's too difficult to swallow.

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It was more a supposition than assumption, and you are right that I have not read the pew poll. I consider their stuff to be more accurate to a degree, though most of the people whom I know don't care for phone polls any more than they care for phone solicitation. So a good many of them just hang up...again, I haven't read the poll so I don't know how they accounted for this. Maybe they did, but my supposition based on personal experience and social interactions with fellow believers is that they rarely answer to these polls. Actually, my experiences is that they never answer in the age of caller ID, but I know better than to make a logical fallacy that all of one type of a group always do one type of thing.

In our community, our family is actually quite mainstream. I guess its the middle-America small town mentality, but we talk about our faith openly and to local officials etc; there is little seperation here. If I had lived here all of my life, I guess you could call it a 'bubble' of faith (though we have already discussed the many divisions within the protestant camp). In a town of 20k when I moved in (30k now I think) our church went from a weekly attendance of about 150ppl to a weekly attendance of around 3k...even as a deacon (term expired) I have no explanation why 10% of the community would attend and grow us so far so fast; our lead pastor is dynamic for sure, but growth like that? Something is happening here and its been alot of good for alot of people, isn't that what all of us want?

But there is the false (imo) belief that mere belief itself is sufficient for ascension. It is written (citation upon request) that even the demons believe in God; "and they shudder".

The odd thing is that I spent so many years on the other side of this debate and agreed with JoshuaM (or was it BrentW?maybe both); I liked my sleep on Sundays and I am a huge football fan as well. Church interfered with my life, but I realized that I was arguing over a book where I hadn't really read and had taken some quotes out of context. Upon reading it, and its hard to read for long, the prose confuses my small brain sometimes; I started to 'get it'. Its basically a history book, especially the Old test., while the new testament is a recitation of (alleged) eye-witness accounts(generalizing here). Still I do agree that its all based on faith. Are these people lying to us? Why? What would be their motivation 2-6thousand years ago? Why would they allow themselves to be tortured, imprisoned, and martyred when all they would have had to do (in many cases) was renounce their faith and end the pain? I have no digestible answers to these questions other than to believe if that the information was deemed worthy of these peoples own lives, it must be pretty powerful stuff. I have seen what motivation can do for people, improved housing projects, work with homeless and addictions and so much more. But I also read about the slaughter of alot of 'innocent' central and south American natives, the inquisition etc. You can go both ways with this when it comes to debate and ultimately we will probably end up in a grudging stalemate. Still, I look forward to learning something new every day, so lets have fun!

[Joshuamonkey]

other side of this debate and agreed with JoshuaM (or was it BrentW?

BrentW

But there is the false (imo) belief that mere belief itself is sufficient for ascension. It is written (citation upon request) that even the demons believe in God; "and they shudder".

I +1 this.

[gejyspa]

It was more a supposition than assumption, and you are right that I have not read the pew poll. I consider their stuff to be more accurate to a degree, though most of the people whom I know don't care for phone polls any more than they care for phone solicitation. So a good many of them just hang up...again, I haven't read the poll so I don't know how they accounted for this.

They covered in their methodology section how they dealt with unfinished polls, and the like. (Again, this isn't the simple 2 minute throw-away factoid that you would see on the local news. This is a very in depth and mathematically sound report. (I should note here that I personally am a poll junkie. I always like to make my opinions known. In the pre-internet days, there was a location at a mall in the City I went to college with that my friend an I would always check in with to offer our opinions on various studies if they were looking for our demographic -- comparing T-shirts, questions about politics, whatever. Our family was a member of the Neilsen Homescan panel, where would literally have to handscan in all our groceries in a handheld scanner and transmit what we bought to Neilsen every week. (And with at that time, a family with three small kids, that was no easy task. We finally had to drop out after a few years because it was just too much work). And now, I'm on the email list of three polling companies who solicit my opinions. I understand the need that businesses have to improve their products and services, so I am always happy to help....but I'm weird Also, in college, as part of my degree requirements, my partner and I compiled a 221 page report on attitudes towards nuclear power (I was in charge of massaging the numbers into pretty charts. He wrote the bulk of the narrative). So I do have a grasp on how statistics work).

In our community, our family is actually quite mainstream.

As is ours in ours, and, I'm willing to bet, Joshuamonkey's is in his.

[Snickie]

But there is the false (imo) belief that mere belief itself is sufficient for ascension. It is written (citation upon request) that even the demons believe in God; "and they shudder".

James 2:19.

IMO, the whole book of James (which I have read multiple times, and people who are complacent with their "faith alone can get you into Heaven" beliefs will most likely not like that book at all) shows us that faith alone will not get you into Heaven. For example, you can say that you love God and you believe in Him, and then go rob a bank or kill someone. By doing that, you've dishonoured God, disobeyed His Commandments, and fooled yourself. Our church is studying the book of Acts right now, and to sum up a lot of what we've been reading, we're told to obey, obey, obey, and oh yeah, obey some more. Obey promptly, obey the directions given from God, obey His Word. But most importantly: obey faithfully.

It is also mentioned in James 1:22-25 (using New Living Translation (NLT)): "But don't just listen to God's word. You must do what it says. Otherwise, you are only fooling yourselves. For if you listen to the word and don't obey, it is like glancing at your face in a mirror. You see yourself, walk away, and forget what you look like. But if you look carefully into the perfect law that sets you free, and if you do what it says and don't forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it." This passage reiterates the importance of being obedient to God. There is also a long passage in James 2:14-26, which I will summarise in verse 17: "So you see, faith by itself isn't enough. Unless it produces good deeds, it is dead and useless."

Therefore, as clearly indicated in the Bible, we must not only have faith in Him, but also obey Him.


Of course, other denominations may have different opinions on the meanings of this; it's a matter of perspective and how the person interprets it. I personally interpret these verses literally. No obedience (regardless of faith) = no Heaven.

[BrentW]

I want to point one very random thing out and I have no facts to bulster it. I think Jews will be around forever. I dont know something tells me this. History is a fun thing at least for me. So looking at history and religions come and go rise and fall they remained and they remained "for the most part" Unchanged. I read a book that was by Brian Herbert. "Yea that guys son" 10 thousand years or more and there are still jews I didnt even raise and eyebrow. Ok back on topic.

I will say it again I dont believe in God I believe that Jesus was a great man sorta along the lines of Gandhi. But religion also teaches things like intolerance I spent a few months in Spain after Highschool. I say go there amazing food I had suckling pig it was out of this world. Anyhoo I was sitting at this little cafe sunday morning reading the paper "English of course my Spanish is um...passable if your drunk." And I got glared at and told I was going to hell tool of the devil and such at least 20 times in the space of 2 hours. And I have dealt with the same thing in the States. I believe in something very simple The universe made us. I dont know what made it or what it is nor will I ever know but It is simple Us.

We live in a nation built on faith though but it went a little funny in some parts. I had a friend who left the airforce and now flies for the Navy because He was ORDERED to go to church. Oh yea it was a born again one. The Evangelicals have a huge influence "only word I could think of." In the airforce that to me is a little nuts what ever happened to Separation of Church and State? Abortion why is that even a queston? gay Marriage? Same thing. I have asked a lot of people about that the best answer i seem to get is because marriage is with a man and woman..I ask why I get "because it is". That go's back to the whole Ignorance thing.

Why should faith have ANY say is anything a government does now a days yet it still does and it's a very powerful force.

[Abe]

I should've explained my point better. I believe that also. My religion probably believes in a lot of Jewish believes, since we believe that before Christ, Judaism was the correct religion, meaning that we believe in the words of Old Testament prophets as long as they're recorded and translated correctly.

AFAIK Islam also believes in Christ "as long as his story is recorded and translated correctly".

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that religion gives our lives a meaning, explains the origins and the future of mankind and gives a moral system. (BrentW: Every time science answers a question, three more comes up. And if you think about how improbable it is that the force of gravity is like it is, Earth is at the exact position where it's not too cold and not too hot, and somehow life started and mankind evolved, it is miraculous. One can easily think that the universe was designed so.) In this hedonistic era very few people ask these questions. There is no food shortage, no epidemics. If you lose your job or the bank takes away your house, you do not turn to God. You just need money. Once hardships like lack of food, natural disasters kick in, religions will be on the rise again, I think.
I appreciate if someone is actually reading and interpreting the Bible (or whatever the holy book of his religion is), not just listening to and accepting whatever a priest or a business man specializing in religion happens to say. The scripture does not always agree with what the church says. I think both gejyspa and Joshuamonkey said that anyone may go to heaven no matter their religion. It may be the widely accepted view today (when we always hear about the importance of tolerance) but I recall that in Dante's Divine Comedy the unbaptised were in hell. So it must have been a common belief back then. I don't know what the Bible actually says about it, though I suspect there is a huge difference between the Old and the New Testament.
Spain reminds me of those Catholic churches where people can pray to the saint that is expert of the territory of their grievances. Is one God too few after all?

[Andu]

Why should faith have ANY say is anything a government does now a days yet it still does and it's a very powerful force.

Why should faith have any saying in what a government does? Nowadays it still does and is a very powerful force.

I ask myself this quite often, and also wonder why people hold one religious scripture as higher authority than another.
What makes them a authority, other than them just stating so?

[gejyspa]

I think both gejyspa and Joshuamonkey said that anyone may go to heaven no matter their religion. It may be the widely accepted view today (when we always hear about the importance of tolerance) but I recall that in Dante's Divine Comedy the unbaptised were in hell. So it must have been a common belief back then. I don't know what the Bible actually says about it, though I suspect there is a huge difference between the Old and the New Testament.

Except that it's not a recent innovation in Judaism. It's from the Talmud, Sanhedrin 105a (http://images.e-daf.com/DafImg.asp?ID=3819&size=1 but if your Aramaic isn't very good, a reasonable English translation can be found here. Start at the paragraph starting "Now only Balaam..." This is in reference back to a Mishnah (which is about 100-200 years earlier) that was quoted some 30 pages earlier) The particular rabbi who says it died 1880 years ago.

I've always found the Xtian and Jewish approaches to other belief systems to be akin to viruses and intestinal bacteria, respectively, vis a vis cells. The former believes "You must be like us" (and any Xtians out there who don't buy this are not abiding by the Great Commission. I personally appreciate your not proselytizing, but it's in your Bible). The latter believes "just leave us alone to reproduce amongst ourselves to produce more bacteria. In return, we will promote a mutually beneficial symbiotic relationship. Try to wipe us out, and bad things will happen...."

Now, did the Jewish people wipe out Canaanite cities pretty viciously back in the OT times? Of course. I would be lying if I said not. But our beef with them was not that they had different belief systems per se, but the practices that attended those systems.

Re: BrentW

The fact that there IS a wall of separation between Church and State in the United States is actually one of the reasons why we are such an intently (individually) religious country as opposed to, say, Western Europe. By not framing the choice as "you can believe in the official state religion X or face {punishment/exclusion/ridicule} Y" for 230 years, we've allowed people to follow the dictates of their hearts. That's why I rail against attempts to break down that wall, whether it be prayer in public school, Xmas as a federal holiday, December decorations (of any stripe) on publicly-held land, etc.

[Joshuamonkey]

I don't know what the Bible actually says about it, I suspect there is a huge difference between the Old and the New Testament.

Even though the language and the times may be different, it's still the same God, and, in a way, the same religion, which is why many religions believe in both Testaments. I think that the Old Testament is harder to understand in general, but both, if written correctly (my religion uses footnotes with secular alternative translations as well as inspired Joseph Smith Translations. There's some cases where it's fairly obvious that something must be stated wrong), provide a lot of good lessons and agree with each other. The main difference would be the Law of Moses and the focus on the Israelite nation (though indeed, a non Israelite prophet is mentioned). The Law of Moses is a good example of how times change. Pigs aren't particularly dangerous to eat anymore, most people don't own farm animals, and hygiene isn't as much of a concern. More significantly, however, is that the Law of Moses was more like a preparatory law, and indeed the sacrifices (especially of a lamb) symbolized Christ's sacrifice. While the Law of Moses focused on more physical aspects of obedience, such as not killing or committing adultery, Christ told us to not have the desire to kill or lust in our hearts. While the Law of Moses focused more on keeping a nation running smoothly (an eye for an eye, etc.), Christ focused more on how we as individuals should act (turn the other cheek, give your coat also, etc.). The Israelite nation and perhaps the world was not ready for the higher law, as shown by Moses' breaking of the stone tablets when he came back from Mount Sinai. Along with the higher law came the Melchizedek Priesthood, which is the spiritual priesthood, and includes the authority to give blessings and give the gift of the Holy Ghost. The Aaronic Priesthood focuses more on the physical aspect of religion, such as baptism, the giving of the bread and wine (in the time before Christ, performing the sacrifices) and keeping the physical aspects of the Church in order. I believe that all prophets knew of Christ, beginning with Adam.

Concerning people in other religions going to heaven, gejyspa said he believed so, and I think Jewish scripture comes mostly from the Old Testament (though seeing gejyspa's new post now, his belief isn't necessarily from the Old Testament, but Balaam's situation still applies (the non Israelite prophet)) and I certainly believe so. Let's see..
*searches the internet for a reference and finds ... shivers* According to the internet, much of Christianity (or at least the religion they're in) believes that only people in their religion go to heaven. If you want an answer concening this, I'd be happy to explain why this is not the case.

Anyway, I like that you mention James, Snickiedoo, because within James is the scripture that led Joseph Smith to pray for an answer as he did:
James 1:5-6:
"5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.
6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed."
This is why religion can work. Because you can pray to know if it's true, and you can pray to know how to understand the scriptures.

[gejyspa]

The Law of Moses is a good example of how times change. Pigs aren't particularly dangerous to eat anymore, most people don't own farm animals, and hygiene isn't as much of a concern. More significantly, however, is that the Law of Moses was more like a preparatory law, and indeed the sacrifices (especially of a lamb) symbolized Christ's sacrifice.

Ah, Joshua, Joshua, Joshua. If only you had prefaced that with "according to my understanding" or "we believe", I'd have nothing to reply to you. But unfortunately, you did not, so I have to take issue with you
According to traiditonal Jewish belief (see how that works? ) all the laws in the Torah (613 of them) are just as binding on Jews today as they ever were (although those that deal with the sacrificial system are temporarily inactive due to the lack of the Holy Temple in Jerusalem). Pigs were never forbidden because of the danger to health. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that, and it was never suggested so by thousands of years of Jewish commentators. For the most part (and there are certain exceptions) the laws of ritual purity have nothing to do with hygiene, either. There is no "prefiguring" of any changer of the law to come. Indeed, it specifically states, (Deut. 4:2) "You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

Concerning people in other religions going to heaven, gejyspa said he believed so, and I think Jewish scripture comes mostly from the Old Testament (though seeing gejyspa's new post now, his belief isn't necessarily from the Old Testament, but Balaam's situation still applies (the non Israelite prophet)) and I certainly believe so.

Ultimately it does derive from there, via exigetical reasoning, as it shows on that page of Talmud. Rabbi Yehoshua ben Chananiah derived it from Psalms 9:17 "The wicked shall be returned into Sheol* and all the nations that forget God". It stands to reason therefore, that those nations (or individuals thereof) that did NOT forget God do NOT get punished in the world to come.

*(lit. grave, also understood as the place of punishment in the hereafter (you would call it Hell, but that has different connotations for us than for you))

In re: "Jewish scripture" We believe in what Xtians would term "the Old Testament" (although we don't call it that, for obvious reasons, preferring the term Bible (in English) or "Tanach" in Hebrew), of which the first five books, the Torah, were written by the hand of God and given to Moses on Mount Sinai (or some parts dictated later), and rest by divinely inspired men. We also believe that at the same time as the written Torah there was second, oral, law transmitted to Moses and passed down via word of mouth through the leaders of each generation, that explains the written law (there are scriptural hints about its existence). This became later written down as the Mishnah around 100 CE, and then much further expounded upon in the Talmud, about one to two hundred years later. And Jewish commentators in the generations since then have been further explaining the esoteric verbiage, etc. (in the page of the Talmud I linked, the Talmud itself is the middle part. The parts around the edges are later commentators).

[Joshuamonkey]

Jesus Christ said that in Him, the Law of Moses was fulfilled. Though I don't understand the full meaning of this (I may get around to looking it up), there's at least one thing worth mentioning:
"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."
That doesn't really even apply here, because, at least my interpretation (ironically) of this scripture is, we're talking about God adding words, not us. This scripture has to do with man adding their own interpretation to His word, or ignoring (or taking out of the scriptures) words based on our own will, and not God's.
Deuteronomy wasn't the last of God's word. He always can continue to have prophets write his word and commandments.

Edit: I looked it up.
Perhaps this is cheating, but this is how a couple of my church leaders put it. This is more an explanation of why my religion believes that Jesus fulfilled the Law of Moses:
"Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets,” Jesus said. “I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil” (Matt. 5:17). The meaning of this verse may be amplified by an alternate translation: “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the Torah or the Prophets, I have come not to abolish but to complete, to make their meaning full.” The Hebrew word Torah, which literally means “teaching or doctrine,” is rendered in the New Testament by the Greek word nomes, which means “law.” Therefore, what Jesus was conveying is that whenever He spoke of or taught from the law of Moses, He would render a fuller or more complete meaning. The law had been given to Moses by Jehovah, who was now upon the earth in His mortal ministry as Jesus Christ; therefore it was His prerogative to make the meaning of the law, the teachings, and the doctrine “full” and “complete.” ... Jesus did not reject the law of Moses—the Torah—as found in the Old Testament. Rather, He used it to affirm its own truthfulness and give a more complete meaning."

"After a period of pleading for forgiveness from the Lord [after the calf thing], Moses was instructed to “hew … two tables of stone like unto the first” (Ex. 34:1) and ascend up the mount. Moses spent 40 days and 40 nights on top of Mount Sinai, without bread or water, and the Lord instructed him:
“Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
“… And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.” Ex. 34:27–28.
Thus, the Ten Commandments were given to mankind to follow and use throughout their lives. Obedience finally brought the law of the Lord to the children of Israel. Disobedience only delayed the progress of the children of Israel towards their promised land. They had to be worthy to receive the law of the Lord.
Note that the Lord delivered His word to Moses, His prophet. The Lord knows what will bless His children, and to that end He delivers laws through His prophets to the people. If obeyed, these laws will lead us back to God. We do not determine for ourselves what those laws are. They are given from God to man."

[gejyspa]

Jesus Christ said that in Him, the Law of Moses was fulfilled. Though I don't understand the full meaning of this (I may get around to looking it up), there's at least one thing worth mentioning:
"You shall not add to the word which I am commanding you, nor take away from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."
That doesn't really even apply here, because we're talking about God adding words, not us. This scripture has to do with man adding their own interpretation to His word, or ignoring (or taking out of the scriptures) words based on our own will, and not God's.
Deuteronomy wasn't the last of God's word. He always can continue to have prophets write his word and commandments.

Numbers 23:19 -- God is not a man that He should lie, nor is He a mortal that He should relent. Would He say and not do, speak and not fulfill?
(Jews of course, don't believe in the divinity of J of Nazareth, but even if such a thing were possible, this shows God will not change the Law. Of course, even J said that he came not to change a single jot or tittle of the Law. This was the major argument between the Jerusalem Church and Paul, for the former felt that in order to be Xtian, you had to become Jewish first, and Paul felt otherwise)

Yes, he could theoretically have more prophets (although Judaism believes that after Malachi, there were no more prophets). But they would not change the laws. Only a prophet equal in stature to Moses could even theoretically possibly do that and (Deut. 34:10) "Since that time no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the LORD knew face to face"