Americans, get out your draft cards
Moderators: Public Relations Department, Players Department
-
rklenseth
- Posts: 4736
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:46 am
-
David
- Posts: 696
- Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:50 am
- Location: Maryland/America
Just a few basic points:
There are certain false premises that seem to never die in America's self-concept. If not stated directly, they lurk below the surface, even when they are denied on the surface.
1. American exceptionalism: America is somehow "different" from the other western powers in terms of its geopolitcal aims, aspirations, and how it goes about achieving them.
No... America is just another western imperialist power. The only "exception" is that it has a shallow history and culture. This can't be something one criticizes America about because it is a fact that can only change over centuries. There are advantages and disadvantages to that fact, but it isn't something that can be directly changed. Other than that... no... America is _just_ another western imperialist power. Nothing more, nothing less. (And currently one of the less "free" in terms of the domestic political psyche of its society when compared to some other western powers)
2. America has an undying innocence (America makes "mistakes"), while Europe by nature, continually hatches plots, everyone else is a kind of a wily Pagan with "loose geopolitcal morals". Again, America has been playing the Imperialist game for approximately 150 years or so. You can only lose your innocence so many times. I forgot, for some reason every 5 years history is wiped clean in America for some reason... (that's a whole other issue)
3. Perhaps this "idiot percentage" theory being discussed has some validity... But countries _do_ have differing levels of education and wellness. It's not as if the world is some sort of pre-established game and all is equal for everyone. For instance, Scandinavian healthcare is, on the whole, more effective than the American healthcare system. The U.S., when compared to similar nations, has a safer road system in terms of fatality rates. Europe's public secondary education system, especially in the humanities (history, etc....) is superior to America, in that Europeans in general know more about European, World, and American History upon graduating than American children know about all three areas, including American History/Geography. Regardless of innate intelligence, the simple lack of knowledge, that is ignorance, prevelant in America about History and similar subjects is true when compared with many other industrialized countries. This isn't just some off-hand statement. It's also not some "liberal europhilic" doctrine. Many American conservatives also decry the ignorance many American's have about History, American or otherwise.
Me? I have really lost patience with American society (politics, the social hangups about everything, the provincialism, arrogance, the ignorance, weak castrated unions, no tradition of mainstream socialism, all the religious nuts who aren't actually religious and otherwise)... I'm most likely moving to Europe within the next 5 years. Of course there are arrogance ignorant people in Europe too... but at least they have a more subtle vocabulary about it (sometimes). I like all the radical political graffiti in Italy, an interesting change up from the gang-symbols in the U.S.
I already see that Europe is becoming more and more like America in terms of the cultureless consumerism, super psyche marketing etc... "McWorld" etc..., but at least the European patient isn't as fargone as its American cousin across the Atlantic. Unfortunately, it just seems like a matter of time. The difference is that I would have a lot more ancient Art, History, and Architecture to enjoy in Europe as it decays into a new America. I am pleased with the development of the E.U. however, perhaps a strong Europe, China, Japan, and India, will bring things back to a more rational arrangement in the world.
Oh I forgot about the women... that's another thing... they just take better care of themselves in Europe (especially Italy
) ... well they do in Miami and California in America... but still. 
There are certain false premises that seem to never die in America's self-concept. If not stated directly, they lurk below the surface, even when they are denied on the surface.
1. American exceptionalism: America is somehow "different" from the other western powers in terms of its geopolitcal aims, aspirations, and how it goes about achieving them.
No... America is just another western imperialist power. The only "exception" is that it has a shallow history and culture. This can't be something one criticizes America about because it is a fact that can only change over centuries. There are advantages and disadvantages to that fact, but it isn't something that can be directly changed. Other than that... no... America is _just_ another western imperialist power. Nothing more, nothing less. (And currently one of the less "free" in terms of the domestic political psyche of its society when compared to some other western powers)
2. America has an undying innocence (America makes "mistakes"), while Europe by nature, continually hatches plots, everyone else is a kind of a wily Pagan with "loose geopolitcal morals". Again, America has been playing the Imperialist game for approximately 150 years or so. You can only lose your innocence so many times. I forgot, for some reason every 5 years history is wiped clean in America for some reason... (that's a whole other issue)
3. Perhaps this "idiot percentage" theory being discussed has some validity... But countries _do_ have differing levels of education and wellness. It's not as if the world is some sort of pre-established game and all is equal for everyone. For instance, Scandinavian healthcare is, on the whole, more effective than the American healthcare system. The U.S., when compared to similar nations, has a safer road system in terms of fatality rates. Europe's public secondary education system, especially in the humanities (history, etc....) is superior to America, in that Europeans in general know more about European, World, and American History upon graduating than American children know about all three areas, including American History/Geography. Regardless of innate intelligence, the simple lack of knowledge, that is ignorance, prevelant in America about History and similar subjects is true when compared with many other industrialized countries. This isn't just some off-hand statement. It's also not some "liberal europhilic" doctrine. Many American conservatives also decry the ignorance many American's have about History, American or otherwise.
Me? I have really lost patience with American society (politics, the social hangups about everything, the provincialism, arrogance, the ignorance, weak castrated unions, no tradition of mainstream socialism, all the religious nuts who aren't actually religious and otherwise)... I'm most likely moving to Europe within the next 5 years. Of course there are arrogance ignorant people in Europe too... but at least they have a more subtle vocabulary about it (sometimes). I like all the radical political graffiti in Italy, an interesting change up from the gang-symbols in the U.S.
I already see that Europe is becoming more and more like America in terms of the cultureless consumerism, super psyche marketing etc... "McWorld" etc..., but at least the European patient isn't as fargone as its American cousin across the Atlantic. Unfortunately, it just seems like a matter of time. The difference is that I would have a lot more ancient Art, History, and Architecture to enjoy in Europe as it decays into a new America. I am pleased with the development of the E.U. however, perhaps a strong Europe, China, Japan, and India, will bring things back to a more rational arrangement in the world.
Oh I forgot about the women... that's another thing... they just take better care of themselves in Europe (especially Italy
) ... well they do in Miami and California in America... but still. -
rklenseth
- Posts: 4736
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:46 am
Ah, good a fresh view point.
Anyways, I disagree with your point about American culture being shallow and all.
I also think the whole blame McDonalds or Coca Cola for the world's problems and destruction of culture is sort of getting old. McDonalds and Coca Cola are companies and mighty fine companies in my opinion. Now Microsoft on the other hand is an immoral company. I don't see what is so immoral about McDonalds and Coca Cola selling their business. If people buy it how is it the company's fault. They are trying to sell their business. McDonalds doesn't hurt its competition with Burger King, or Wendy's (and for you Southern and Western people; Sonic's; we don't have very many of them up north) or any of chain fast food places. The same goes with Coca Cola with Pepsi Cola, thousands of generics, etc... I mean in America we do have Italian, Japanese, Chinese, Mexican, Indian etc... restaurants. Should we Americans say that these companies are trying to ruin our culture because they are selling us different food.
I do agree that the average American has limited knowledge of the world but that is because of the shallow culture you were talking about above. Americans only really care about locality. It comes from the age of an isolated America. The Agri-culture America that Thomas Jefferson tried to build. Where your immediate community mattered more than what happened even in the next town over. What is the most read newspaper in the place you live? I bet it would be the local paper(s). People only want knowledge of their immediate surroundings and how they can survive in it.
Politics I think is rather fucked up in America. We have to many type A wantabe presidents or congressmen who rather like to have the power and the glory and nothing to do with the responsibility. I have since turned away from the Republican-Democrat Party. I have always been registered as an Independent anyway. I'm really looking at the Libertarian Parties and their platforms lately. I would prefer an Indpendent with the ideals of George Washington, the soveriegnty of the states and individual, decentralized Federal government, not an isolationist foreign policy but one that is based on common morality (Human Rights). But the Libertarians are closest to that and can legally be elected President. It is against the law in most states to be put on the ballot unless you are defined as a Republican, Democract, or Third Party (there are very few other parties that are given this status; ie. Green Party, Libertarian Parties).
I do agree that the Bill of Rights is being ripped apart in this country but I don't see how going to a socialistic country will make it any better. The point of socialism is to force everyone together under one entity. Look at NAZI Germany or the Soviet Union or the Calvinistic Netherlands.
I think in the end it really comes down to individuals.
Anyways, I disagree with your point about American culture being shallow and all.
I also think the whole blame McDonalds or Coca Cola for the world's problems and destruction of culture is sort of getting old. McDonalds and Coca Cola are companies and mighty fine companies in my opinion. Now Microsoft on the other hand is an immoral company. I don't see what is so immoral about McDonalds and Coca Cola selling their business. If people buy it how is it the company's fault. They are trying to sell their business. McDonalds doesn't hurt its competition with Burger King, or Wendy's (and for you Southern and Western people; Sonic's; we don't have very many of them up north) or any of chain fast food places. The same goes with Coca Cola with Pepsi Cola, thousands of generics, etc... I mean in America we do have Italian, Japanese, Chinese, Mexican, Indian etc... restaurants. Should we Americans say that these companies are trying to ruin our culture because they are selling us different food.
I do agree that the average American has limited knowledge of the world but that is because of the shallow culture you were talking about above. Americans only really care about locality. It comes from the age of an isolated America. The Agri-culture America that Thomas Jefferson tried to build. Where your immediate community mattered more than what happened even in the next town over. What is the most read newspaper in the place you live? I bet it would be the local paper(s). People only want knowledge of their immediate surroundings and how they can survive in it.
Politics I think is rather fucked up in America. We have to many type A wantabe presidents or congressmen who rather like to have the power and the glory and nothing to do with the responsibility. I have since turned away from the Republican-Democrat Party. I have always been registered as an Independent anyway. I'm really looking at the Libertarian Parties and their platforms lately. I would prefer an Indpendent with the ideals of George Washington, the soveriegnty of the states and individual, decentralized Federal government, not an isolationist foreign policy but one that is based on common morality (Human Rights). But the Libertarians are closest to that and can legally be elected President. It is against the law in most states to be put on the ballot unless you are defined as a Republican, Democract, or Third Party (there are very few other parties that are given this status; ie. Green Party, Libertarian Parties).
I do agree that the Bill of Rights is being ripped apart in this country but I don't see how going to a socialistic country will make it any better. The point of socialism is to force everyone together under one entity. Look at NAZI Germany or the Soviet Union or the Calvinistic Netherlands.
I think in the end it really comes down to individuals.
-
David
- Posts: 696
- Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:50 am
- Location: Maryland/America
For me its not so much about being a socialist and tolerated, its about a tolerance of socialism in Europe. In America, in most places, if you begin to even talk of some of the more radical ideas left-of-center, it would be like going to Medieval Western Europe and decrying certain aspects of the Church. You would be met with cries of evildoer witch etc... its the knee-jerk reaction thing with respect to left-of-center politics in mainstream politics. The KKK is more tolerated than the Communist party, and frankly I don't see a moral parity there. For me its kind of an ideological laisse-faire that I don't see in many places in America that I was trying to highlight about Europe. I mean you drive to a random locale in America and your less likely to get a well formulated discussion about politics than if you do the same in Europe, in addition there seem to be more sacred cows and dogmas when trying talk about various topics when in America. Not that there aren't penty of thought cliches in Europe, its just that there is a more free atmosphere about it, or so it seems.
A variety of restraunt and deep rooted culture are entirely different. It's not that I don't mind the salad bowl or melting pot thing... but to confuse a tossed salad (American Culture) for a simmering pot of sauce that has been on the stove all day (Europe). Italy for instance, to me is something far more interesting because of the amount of time and the layers of culture. You almost get the sense that there is this rigid lattice of the Roman Empire, and the a sort of colorful organic culture that grew around this grid lattice, that is a combination of West, East, and everything in between. On top of that "sauce that has been simmering all day" you also have the "salad" like in America, since there is so much new immigration to Italy from all around the globe. (I suppose it is the same for Europe in general, altough I don't know the immigration statistics for all of Europe)
Again this isn't good or bad, I still think on some levels the shallow description fits, its just how it is, there may be ancient culture transplanted here, but overall no coghesive narrative to bring it all together, not that the point of melding. It's a matter of taste whether one likes it or not. Again, I'm not passing judgement, its just my preference.
As far as the McDonald's Coke thing... that was just shorthand for pointing to suburban cultureless standardization. It's not so much that Coke is evil, its just symptomatic of what has developed over time into a cultural aesthetic which simply doesn't appeal to me. I mean, 15 years ago, when I was a young kid, there used to be peach orchard overlooking my grandfather's property, now there are a bunch of cookie cutter houses, 50 years ago there town squares, now there are anonymous strip malls. I'm not placing blame, I just don't like how things have developed in that respect. There is a kind of insular nervousness, and little interaction outside of small circles here in America. In contrast, Italian cities are built around Palazzos, or what we would call town squares, but not just one big one, there are several small ones scattered throughout the cities and little winding streets connecting everything, almost like vines. And one pastime is just to sit on public steps and chat with whoever, and drink whereever. I mean at one time most of America was like that _to an extent_ but not anymore for the most part. And there is just a different ethos that I can't even put into words... I can't even really explain any of it with words, you just have to visit and find out for yourself.
When I came back to the states I looked at how communally desolate the malls and strip malls were in comparison, even in some places where there are town squares of sorts it just wasn't the same. Here you have to find little enclaves to get into to even approach what I found there... there it is just easygoing and there are little enclaves but also the wider social space... again... that's just part of it, there are alot of other things too... and I can't really put it into words. Even in Rome, the biggest city, it still feels like a small town in some respects, yet very urbane, can't explain, you will just have to go there to see.
A variety of restraunt and deep rooted culture are entirely different. It's not that I don't mind the salad bowl or melting pot thing... but to confuse a tossed salad (American Culture) for a simmering pot of sauce that has been on the stove all day (Europe). Italy for instance, to me is something far more interesting because of the amount of time and the layers of culture. You almost get the sense that there is this rigid lattice of the Roman Empire, and the a sort of colorful organic culture that grew around this grid lattice, that is a combination of West, East, and everything in between. On top of that "sauce that has been simmering all day" you also have the "salad" like in America, since there is so much new immigration to Italy from all around the globe. (I suppose it is the same for Europe in general, altough I don't know the immigration statistics for all of Europe)
Again this isn't good or bad, I still think on some levels the shallow description fits, its just how it is, there may be ancient culture transplanted here, but overall no coghesive narrative to bring it all together, not that the point of melding. It's a matter of taste whether one likes it or not. Again, I'm not passing judgement, its just my preference.
As far as the McDonald's Coke thing... that was just shorthand for pointing to suburban cultureless standardization. It's not so much that Coke is evil, its just symptomatic of what has developed over time into a cultural aesthetic which simply doesn't appeal to me. I mean, 15 years ago, when I was a young kid, there used to be peach orchard overlooking my grandfather's property, now there are a bunch of cookie cutter houses, 50 years ago there town squares, now there are anonymous strip malls. I'm not placing blame, I just don't like how things have developed in that respect. There is a kind of insular nervousness, and little interaction outside of small circles here in America. In contrast, Italian cities are built around Palazzos, or what we would call town squares, but not just one big one, there are several small ones scattered throughout the cities and little winding streets connecting everything, almost like vines. And one pastime is just to sit on public steps and chat with whoever, and drink whereever. I mean at one time most of America was like that _to an extent_ but not anymore for the most part. And there is just a different ethos that I can't even put into words... I can't even really explain any of it with words, you just have to visit and find out for yourself.
When I came back to the states I looked at how communally desolate the malls and strip malls were in comparison, even in some places where there are town squares of sorts it just wasn't the same. Here you have to find little enclaves to get into to even approach what I found there... there it is just easygoing and there are little enclaves but also the wider social space... again... that's just part of it, there are alot of other things too... and I can't really put it into words. Even in Rome, the biggest city, it still feels like a small town in some respects, yet very urbane, can't explain, you will just have to go there to see.
Last edited by David on Fri Jun 11, 2004 6:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
-
David
- Posts: 696
- Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:50 am
- Location: Maryland/America
One thing though... if you think New York traffic is bad... get ready for a whole new breed of driving with many different kind of vehicles to dodge... Bikes, scooters, people, trucks, cars, crammed into either broad streets or tiny alleys, some streets fluctuate in width. Triple and Quadruple parkes.... sideways upside down... passing on the left and right.. even on 2 lane roads... at the same time with scooters... and if you stop at a red light, just because its red, if there is no traffic, be perpared to be run off the road by the people behind you....
-
Missy
- Posts: 2467
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:12 am
- Location: Pennsylvania
-
rklenseth
- Posts: 4736
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:46 am
-
rklenseth
- Posts: 4736
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:46 am
David wrote:For me its not so much about being a socialist and tolerated, its about a tolerance of socialism in Europe. In America, in most places, if you begin to even talk of some of the more radical ideas left-of-center, it would be like going to Medieval Western Europe and decrying certain aspects of the Church. You would be met with cries of evildoer witch etc... its the knee-jerk reaction thing with respect to left-of-center politics in mainstream politics. The KKK is more tolerated than the Communist party, and frankly I don't see a moral parity there. For me its kind of an ideological laisse-faire that I don't see in many places in America that I was trying to highlight about Europe. I mean you drive to a random locale in America and your less likely to get a well formulated discussion about politics than if you do the same in Europe, in addition there seem to be more sacred cows and dogmas when trying talk about various topics when in America. Not that there aren't penty of thought cliches in Europe, its just that there is a more free atmosphere about it, or so it seems.
A variety of restraunt and deep rooted culture are entirely different. It's not that I don't mind the salad bowl or melting pot thing... but to confuse a tossed salad (American Culture) for a simmering pot of sauce that has been on the stove all day (Europe). Italy for instance, to me is something far more interesting because of the amount of time and the layers of culture. You almost get the sense that there is this rigid lattice of the Roman Empire, and the a sort of colorful organic culture that grew around this grid lattice, that is a combination of West, East, and everything in between. On top of that "sauce that has been simmering all day" you also have the "salad" like in America, since there is so much new immigration to Italy from all around the globe. (I suppose it is the same for Europe in general, altough I don't know the immigration statistics for all of Europe)
Again this isn't good or bad, I still think on some levels the shallow description fits, its just how it is, there may be ancient culture transplanted here, but overall no coghesive narrative to bring it all together, not that the point of melding. It's a matter of taste whether one likes it or not. Again, I'm not passing judgement, its just my preference.
As far as the McDonald's Coke thing... that was just shorthand for pointing to suburban cultureless standardization. It's not so much that Coke is evil, its just symptomatic of what has developed over time into a cultural aesthetic which simply doesn't appeal to me. I mean, 15 years ago, when I was a young kid, there used to be peach orchard overlooking my grandfather's property, now there are a bunch of cookie cutter houses, 50 years ago there town squares, now there are anonymous strip malls. I'm not placing blame, I just don't like how things have developed in that respect. There is a kind of insular nervousness, and little interaction outside of small circles here in America. In contrast, Italian cities are built around Palazzos, or what we would call town squares, but not just one big one, there are several small ones scattered throughout the cities and little winding streets connecting everything, almost like vines. And one pastime is just to sit on public steps and chat with whoever, and drink whereever. I mean at one time most of America was like that _to an extent_ but not anymore for the most part. And there is just a different ethos that I can't even put into words... I can't even really explain any of it with words, you just have to visit and find out for yourself.
When I came back to the states I looked at how communally desolate the malls and strip malls were in comparison, even in some places where there are town squares of sorts it just wasn't the same. Here you have to find little enclaves to get into to even approach what I found there... there it is just easygoing and there are little enclaves but also the wider social space... again... that's just part of it, there are alot of other things too... and I can't really put it into words. Even in Rome, the biggest city, it still feels like a small town in some respects, yet very urbane, can't explain, you will just have to go there to see.
Wow that is the first time I have ever had culture described to me as a food being cooked.
Anyways, I do understand you with the Suburbanization and even Urbanization of America. I live in area that as I was growing up was mostly forest. Now they are building all of these developments around us with all of these rich people moving in that think they are better than any of us because they have money. I do like to say that at least the house I live in has history and was built by the hands of the people that live in it and not some factory somewhere.
I do understand though that the population in America and the world is growing. I am beginning of the last baby boom. Once my generation grows up and gets out of college, there going to need places to live. So I think in the next decade or so we are going to see a lot of this on an even larger scale. I don't like to see it but...
The KKK is only tolerated by those that support them and those that support them are few in between. Remember, that most of America is made up of Irish and Italian Catholics (me being one of them). The KKK hates Catholics, especially the Irish ones. I think the socialist parties are accepted in America. The Green Party is a defined as a Third Party. I'm not sure where the Communist Party is defined as but I'm sure they have their numbers and eventually they'll be considered a Third Party.
And just to make clear, socialism goes both ways of the political spectrum. Right and left. But I understand that you are going for a more Leftist Socialism rather that Conservative.
-
Missy
- Posts: 2467
- Joined: Mon Jul 21, 2003 9:12 am
- Location: Pennsylvania
Serenity (rklenseth) wrote:Missy wrote:I happen to agree with a lot of the things Pirog says. Yes, even as an army spouse who supports the troops and is patriotic. I don't feel it's bashing to tell the truth.I feel its about damn time someone tried to get people to wake up.
Depends on whose truth you believe.
Yes, thats true, but I'm always right.
j/k-
David
- Posts: 696
- Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:50 am
- Location: Maryland/America
Yes, there are left and right socialists, I didn't mean to imply that there aren't any. The right wing socialists scare me more. Although my nuclear family isn't Italian itself, I grew up around my sister's husband's Italian Catholic family, and my other sister's husband's Irish Catholic family. Not to mention that my family is predominatly in the building industry and you run into a lot of Catholics in that line of work. Also I have lived my entire life in Maryland (Mary - Land, a lot of people don't know that about Maryland), which was the only original English Catholic colony. So even though aside from my one sister, no one in my nuclear family is Catholic, I kind of grew up around it anyway. I have always had an affection for the culture that surrounds Catholicism, both the people and the art, I'm not a big fan of hardcore religion in general though.
Although my nuclear family isn't Italian itself, I grew up around my sister's husband's Italian Catholic family, and my other sister's husband's Irish Catholic family. Not to mention that my family is predominatly in the building industry and you run into a lot of Catholics in that line of work. Also I have lived my entire life in Maryland (Mary - Land, a lot of people don't know that about Maryland), which was the only original English Catholic colony. So even though aside from my one sister, no one in my nuclear family is Catholic, I kind of grew up around it anyway. I have always had an affection for the culture that surrounds Catholicism, both the people and the art, I'm not a big fan of hardcore religion in general though.-
Pirog
- Posts: 2046
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:36 am
- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
I'm back from my destroyed vaccation plans 
David>
I agree with just about everything you say.
Sweden is one of the countries in Europe that has taken in American cultural values the fastest...and it's not often a pretty sight.
Although many things are great with American culture, it is the "wear and tear" idea behind it that I don't like.
Take Hollywood for example. They have the ability to make better movies than anyone else on this planet, but still 99 % of what comes out is pure crap...just because they know it sells to make movies that doesn't surprise anyone.
Lenseth>
Communistic thought really aren't accepted in USA.
In Europe, for example, many university courses are based on Marxistic thinking. Even if few people here are communists many still believe that many of the things he said was intelligent and appliable. (like how the all more segmented industry makes people lose their identity)
David>
I agree with just about everything you say.
Sweden is one of the countries in Europe that has taken in American cultural values the fastest...and it's not often a pretty sight.
Although many things are great with American culture, it is the "wear and tear" idea behind it that I don't like.
Take Hollywood for example. They have the ability to make better movies than anyone else on this planet, but still 99 % of what comes out is pure crap...just because they know it sells to make movies that doesn't surprise anyone.
Lenseth>
Communistic thought really aren't accepted in USA.
In Europe, for example, many university courses are based on Marxistic thinking. Even if few people here are communists many still believe that many of the things he said was intelligent and appliable. (like how the all more segmented industry makes people lose their identity)
Eat the invisible food, Industrialist...it's delicious!
-
rklenseth
- Posts: 4736
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:46 am
I agree with you on the Hollywood bit but the point of the matter with that is that Hollywood is business. They are going to make what is going to make them money. So if people watch total crap that is what Hollywood is going to make. Now granted some great films come out of Hollywood. Just not many.
I disagree with your belief that Communistic thought is not accepted in the US. It is. I will use one example and that is labor unions. I think it is also based on that schools or colleges go out of their way to look at things in a unbiased manner. So if you have Marxist writing then your going to have to have Conservative writing as well so that you are getting both sides of the spectrum.
I have read The Communist Manfisto and I think a lot of his ideas are great but I jsut don't think it will work with Human Nature as described in The Prince. I think there will always be people like Stalin who will want power and whatever other bullshit it is they want.
I disagree with your belief that Communistic thought is not accepted in the US. It is. I will use one example and that is labor unions. I think it is also based on that schools or colleges go out of their way to look at things in a unbiased manner. So if you have Marxist writing then your going to have to have Conservative writing as well so that you are getting both sides of the spectrum.
I have read The Communist Manfisto and I think a lot of his ideas are great but I jsut don't think it will work with Human Nature as described in The Prince. I think there will always be people like Stalin who will want power and whatever other bullshit it is they want.
-
Pirog
- Posts: 2046
- Joined: Wed Jul 23, 2003 8:36 am
- Location: Gothenburg, Sweden
I agree with you on the Hollywood bit but the point of the matter with that is that Hollywood is business.
You are right...but much of American culture seems based on ultra-capitalism. But you have also birthed many excellent cultural achievements, so don't take it as I'm only bashing.
I have read The Communist Manfisto and I think a lot of his ideas are great but I jsut don't think it will work with Human Nature as described in The Prince. I think there will always be people like Stalin who will want power and whatever other bullshit it is they want.
I agree...but we shouldn't stop trying, as much of the Western world has done today. Even democracy is dying...
Eat the invisible food, Industrialist...it's delicious!
-
David
- Posts: 696
- Joined: Mon Dec 15, 2003 5:50 am
- Location: Maryland/America
The Communist Manifesto was a kind of party platform for that day and age, that specific time period. A lot of the underlying thought that informs the Communist Manifesto comes from Das Kapital. Not that everything in Das Kapital is perfect, but the Communist Manifesto is a kind of shorthand temporary document which was specifically tailored for that day and age in Western Civilization. It would be like hauling out the Republic party platform of 100 years ago or more and trying to apply it to now. Kapital is much more in depth, contradictory (as all great works tend to be) and subtle. The Manifesto was a more direct plan of action, Kapital was the theory behind it.
There are American university programs (many, actually) that study Communism in a fairly objective fashion. Yet, most Americans do not even remotely share the tolerance level allowed with respect to Communism is given in American Universities. Most people aren't graduates as it is... What I was refering to all along was the wider American body-politic. In Europe, there is simply greater allowance for radical thought in mainstream life, especially in left of center politics, but also to the right in some respects. (Italy is essentially divided by two extremes Communists-Socialists and post-Facists with everyone else in the country in between, for instance) Although, there is more native political terrorism in Italy than the U.S., well... it actually depends if you want to include various hate crimes in the U.S., I don't really know the statistics so I'm not sure. The point is that you find more people in Italy with varying political convictions beyond those legally sanctioned by CNN and FOX in the U.S.. Convictions which are rooted deep in Philosophical and Historical happenings. Less like the talk-show driven politics in America. Yet... even in Italy this is changing, thanks in large part to the Media-Mogul Mafiaso-cum-Prime Minister Berlesconi in Italy, and his party Forza Italia (who shares a coalition government with former facist terrorists and religious-socialists). Again though, there is a deeper and wider mainstream ideolgical pool to swim in Europe. The mainstream ideological pool in America is much more stringent, before you are labeled "extremist" and thought to go off the deep end of all mainstream politics. (Regardless of how much Burlesconi tries to label anyone against him a "Communist" traitor, much of the wider body-politic in Italy rejects such sensationalism... yet Burlesconi stays in power.... ah well.
There are American university programs (many, actually) that study Communism in a fairly objective fashion. Yet, most Americans do not even remotely share the tolerance level allowed with respect to Communism is given in American Universities. Most people aren't graduates as it is... What I was refering to all along was the wider American body-politic. In Europe, there is simply greater allowance for radical thought in mainstream life, especially in left of center politics, but also to the right in some respects. (Italy is essentially divided by two extremes Communists-Socialists and post-Facists with everyone else in the country in between, for instance) Although, there is more native political terrorism in Italy than the U.S., well... it actually depends if you want to include various hate crimes in the U.S., I don't really know the statistics so I'm not sure. The point is that you find more people in Italy with varying political convictions beyond those legally sanctioned by CNN and FOX in the U.S.. Convictions which are rooted deep in Philosophical and Historical happenings. Less like the talk-show driven politics in America. Yet... even in Italy this is changing, thanks in large part to the Media-Mogul Mafiaso-cum-Prime Minister Berlesconi in Italy, and his party Forza Italia (who shares a coalition government with former facist terrorists and religious-socialists). Again though, there is a deeper and wider mainstream ideolgical pool to swim in Europe. The mainstream ideological pool in America is much more stringent, before you are labeled "extremist" and thought to go off the deep end of all mainstream politics. (Regardless of how much Burlesconi tries to label anyone against him a "Communist" traitor, much of the wider body-politic in Italy rejects such sensationalism... yet Burlesconi stays in power.... ah well.
-
rklenseth
- Posts: 4736
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 12:46 am
Return to “Non-Cantr-Related Discussion”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest