Americans, get out your draft cards

[Pirog]

I thank for you the bio's of Hussein and Bin Laden, but that isn't new to me. Did you misread what I wrote and thought that I actually meant that they are movie figures, or am I the one not understanding you?

How come you get to the conclusion that I lack knowledge of basic history? So far I feel that I'm the one correcting you...

Now to the arguments that I do understand:

What history of using WMD's do we have? Yeah, we nuked Japan, and that was the only time the US has used WMD in actual combat. We have never used chemical or biological weapons against anyone. Europeans on the other hand happily gassed the hell out of each other in WWI and WWII.

So you supplying the chemical weapons that Saddam used against the Iranians and later on his own people doesn't count at all?
The enormous amounts of poisons (like Agent Orange) dropped over Vietnam, causing deformed children even today doesn't count?

And when did Europeans use gass in WW2?

The US is but continuing the path that Europe set it upon beginning with WWI. It took Europe a 1000 years to stop killing each other in droves, way I see it, the US can't screw up anything any worse then what's already been done in the past, and so far there is nothing we done half as bad as some of the things European countries have done in the past.

You are right. But the Europeans, wise from 1000 years of making mistakes are trying to prevent you from tying the score.
In my view idiotic decisions made hundreds of years ago (you don't even have to go that far back, since Europe has done many bad things in modern times) doesn't give you the right to screw the world up nowdays.
Learn from the mistakes made by others. That is what Europe is slowly starting to do.
While Europe has started to understand that gunboat diplomacy leads to more trouble than it solves USA keeps falling on their own methods. Both Saddam Hussein and Usama bin Laden are people created by failed American politics, and killing them off in spectacular ways will only created ten times as many terrorists as you kill off.

Europe gave them a reason to hate the west again, just like the muslims had a reason to hate the west for the crusades of the the middle ages. Now everyone wants to point the finger at the US and scream "it's you, it's you". They do that because they are failing to recognize their own responsibility in the way things have turned out. They dragged the US into the middle of this sh*t, then abandoned ship when the water got rough.

Yeah, and I'm the one with the conspiracies...right.
I think your view of USA as a passive victim being dragged into the Middle East by evil Europeans will have a hard time convincing anyone with a sober mind.
Again, I'm not saying that Europe has clean hands...but neither has USA.

And don't forget, most americans aren't very happy with alot of Europe either, but you don't see us shouting it from the rooftops, why? Because it's pointless and a waste of time, instead we're taking the inititive in trying to do something about the problems that are being faced by the world, we're doing something instead of b*tching about what should be done, and yeah that may be flawed, but it's because the people who could help us don't have the guts to do more then sit around complaining about what we're doing.

Well, for you personally all you lack is the rooftop.
And for Americans in general you have spent 50 years bragging about how you single-handedly saved the world and making jokes about the lack of ability to fight amongst the French, who historically is one of the world's greatest military powers.
It's not cowardice amongst the Europeans making you stand so alone...it's your own arrogance.
And seeing how badly your government has screwed up in Iraq I'm very glad that most European countries had enough wit to let you make that mistake by yourself instead of being stuck there and made prime target of millions of peoples hate.

You know, the next time your country bails another country out of trouble it should try to gloat less afterwards. If USA had been a bit modest they would get a lot more appreciation, instead of how it was with WWII, where you tried to hog all the glory while it was the Russians who bled and died the most, fought hardest and even could have defeated Hitler by themselves.

[Bran-Muffin]

You know, the next time your country bails another country out of trouble it should try to gloat less afterwards. If USA had been a bit modest they would get a lot more appreciation, instead of how it was with WWII, where you tried to hog all the glory while it was the Russians who bled and died the most, fought hardest and even could have defeated Hitler by themselves.

Right going to add this little bit, the russians were close to signing a treaty with germany during wwII. Because they were tired of being the only ones fighting and loosing their people. D-day, that whole thing happened when it did becuase of that, the allies had to act before they lost one of their allies >.> heh i know not what you were saying, but still russia was getting irritated at the other allies for not doing anything, so they would have signed a treaty to stop the fighting and loosing of their people.

[rklenseth]

You know, the next time your country bails another country out of trouble it should try to gloat less afterwards. If USA had been a bit modest they would get a lot more appreciation, instead of how it was with WWII, where you tried to hog all the glory while it was the Russians who bled and died the most, fought hardest and even could have defeated Hitler by themselves.

Right going to add this little bit, the russians were close to signing a treaty with germany during wwII. Because they were tired of being the only ones fighting and loosing their people. D-day, that whole thing happened when it did becuase of that, the allies had to act before they lost one of their allies >.> heh i know not what you were saying, but still russia was getting irritated at the other allies for not doing anything, so they would have signed a treaty to stop the fighting and loosing of their people.

Except it was Hitler that backstabbed Russia in the first place since Russia and Germany were allies in the beginning of the WWII. Hitler broke his treaty with Stalin after he invaded Russia. It was then Stalin at the Yalta Conference where he allied with the Allies to help rid of Hitler and Germany. I find it highly doubtful that Stalin would have signed a treaty with backstabbing Hitler.

Hitler used his treaty with Stalin to keep Russia from being skittish from Germany's aggression against the rest of Europe during the late 1930's.

Pirog:

Poison gas was used during WWII. Not as much as WWI but it was used by Germany on the Russians and the Slavs in the Balkans during that time period. Germany also used poison gas to kill Jewish or others that Hitler didn't like during the Holocaust.

[rklenseth]

I thank for you the bio's of Hussein and Bin Laden, but that isn't new to me. Did you misread what I wrote and thought that I actually meant that they are movie figures, or am I the one not understanding you?

How come you get to the conclusion that I lack knowledge of basic history? So far I feel that I'm the one correcting you...

Now to the arguments that I do understand:

What history of using WMD's do we have? Yeah, we nuked Japan, and that was the only time the US has used WMD in actual combat. We have never used chemical or biological weapons against anyone. Europeans on the other hand happily gassed the hell out of each other in WWI and WWII.

So you supplying the chemical weapons that Saddam used against the Iranians and later on his own people doesn't count at all?
The enormous amounts of poisons (like Agent Orange) dropped over Vietnam, causing deformed children even today doesn't count?

And when did Europeans use gass in WW2?

The US is but continuing the path that Europe set it upon beginning with WWI. It took Europe a 1000 years to stop killing each other in droves, way I see it, the US can't screw up anything any worse then what's already been done in the past, and so far there is nothing we done half as bad as some of the things European countries have done in the past.

You are right. But the Europeans, wise from 1000 years of making mistakes are trying to prevent you from tying the score.
In my view idiotic decisions made hundreds of years ago (you don't even have to go that far back, since Europe has done many bad things in modern times) doesn't give you the right to screw the world up nowdays.
Learn from the mistakes made by others. That is what Europe is slowly starting to do.
While Europe has started to understand that gunboat diplomacy leads to more trouble than it solves USA keeps falling on their own methods. Both Saddam Hussein and Usama bin Laden are people created by failed American politics, and killing them off in spectacular ways will only created ten times as many terrorists as you kill off.

Europe gave them a reason to hate the west again, just like the muslims had a reason to hate the west for the crusades of the the middle ages. Now everyone wants to point the finger at the US and scream "it's you, it's you". They do that because they are failing to recognize their own responsibility in the way things have turned out. They dragged the US into the middle of this sh*t, then abandoned ship when the water got rough.

Yeah, and I'm the one with the conspiracies...right.
I think your view of USA as a passive victim being dragged into the Middle East by evil Europeans will have a hard time convincing anyone with a sober mind.
Again, I'm not saying that Europe has clean hands...but neither has USA.

And don't forget, most americans aren't very happy with alot of Europe either, but you don't see us shouting it from the rooftops, why? Because it's pointless and a waste of time, instead we're taking the inititive in trying to do something about the problems that are being faced by the world, we're doing something instead of b*tching about what should be done, and yeah that may be flawed, but it's because the people who could help us don't have the guts to do more then sit around complaining about what we're doing.

Well, for you personally all you lack is the rooftop.
And for Americans in general you have spent 50 years bragging about how you single-handedly saved the world and making jokes about the lack of ability to fight amongst the French, who historically is one of the world's greatest military powers.
It's not cowardice amongst the Europeans making you stand so alone...it's your own arrogance.
And seeing how badly your government has screwed up in Iraq I'm very glad that most European countries had enough wit to let you make that mistake by yourself instead of being stuck there and made prime target of millions of peoples hate.

You know, the next time your country bails another country out of trouble it should try to gloat less afterwards. If USA had been a bit modest they would get a lot more appreciation, instead of how it was with WWII, where you tried to hog all the glory while it was the Russians who bled and died the most, fought hardest and even could have defeated Hitler by themselves.

Just some words to say.

The only time that France was a military power was when Napoleon Bonaparte was in power and even then it was defeated by the British. France doesn't have a very good military record except when they had Napoleon in his early years or when they were allied with another more powerful country (ie. the British Empire). Plus the Napoleonic Era created many of the post modern problem we saw in Europe from the 1830's to the 1950's.

Once again, Hitler invaded Russia and broke his treaty with Stalin. Stalin only joined the Allies because of this and it was more out of revenge rather than doing the right thing. Anyways, it was Hitler's mistake of breaking that treaty and invading Russia that lost him the war. If he had taken over Great Britian first and Africa there would have never been a D-Day or a place to launch a D-Day from.

I don't think we have screwed up in Iraq. But that is my personal opinion. I also personally don't like the blame game but if you are going to use that against America then I will simply put it this way. Yes, we created Saddam but now we have taken the responsibility in getting rid of Saddam. Something that the major European powers have never come to grips with their Imperialistic Age. Most of the hate towards the West are things done by European Powers not America. Lawerence of Arabia is a great example of that. America can also be blamed for creating Japan during its Imperialistic Age as well as most of Latin America and South Pacific. But look at what has happened to places like Japan and a lot of places in South Pacific or Latin America are definitely far better off than places like the Middle East and Africa where America didn't have a hand in until the major European powers retreated to their little part of Eurasia with the mythical beleive in that if they hide behind themselves that maybe much of these places will forget their past trangressions and they won't have to take the responsibility themselves of cleaning up the messes they created. I mean things are far from perfect or even good in South Pacific or South America but a hell of a lot better than the Middle East and Africa and at least those people there have hope. I don't think any person willing to strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up to their creator has much hope at all.

The fact is that America has taken responsibility for what it has done in the past. We have made many mistakes and we will continue to make mistakes in the future. The difference is that we at least take responsibility. We don't go and hide away in our country hoping that the problem will go away. It might be arrogant but it is hell of a lot better than being ignorant in my opinion.

[ephiroll]

Yeah, Russia was on the verge of civil war and almost had a repeat of what happened at the end of WWI.

@Pirog

You're the one who said Saddam and Hussain were "no more then movie crooks in our eyes". I proved that they weren't.

Yeah, the US supplied Iraq with the chemical and biological weapons they used, but we recognize the mistake and tried to fix it. Agent Orange wasn't a chemical weapon, it was a herbacide used to clear vegetation from land for landing strips and other things. At the time the dangers of DDT weren't known, we sprayed the stuff all over our own country and our own soldiers believeing it was safe, it was never intended to harm anyone. Gas was used on prisoners during WWII by the Germans and Japanese in medical experiments, Germans on Jews, Japanese on Chinese.

Europe didn't change what they were doing because they got "wiser", they changed their tactics because they damn near destroyed themselves twice within 30 years and were barely strong enough to take care of the homefront, much less worry about overseas territory. European nations were fighting civil wars in Africa well into the 50's, and never gave up till they finally realized they weren't strong enough to hold a global empire anymore. And yes, Saddam and Osama were mistakes, mistakes we're now fixing.

A "passive victim" wouldn't have went to war to begin with, and perssonally I don't believe there's any such thing as a "passive victim". My point is that European countries started the mess, and now the US is the only one making any attempt to clean it up.

Yeah, historically the French were one of the greatest military powers. But that doesn't make up for the fact that they folded like a deck of cards in the two wars that they were really needed in, they were tried against the best and they came out second fiddle. And European nations refused to do anything about Iraq BEFORE the US made any of the recent mistakes, not after. European nations made very little attempt over the last 10 years to do anything about Saddam, they didn't even try to push the UN into doing anything, and this is the type of thing the UN was "sopposidly" going to prevent.

[ephiroll]

The fact is that America has taken responsibility for what it has done in the past. We have made many mistakes and we will continue to make mistakes in the future. The difference is that we at least take responsibility. We don't go and hide away in our country hoping that the problem will go away. It might be arrogant but it is hell of a lot better than being ignorant in my opinion.

Damn straight , arrogance can be used as a weapon, ignorance just gets you killed.

[Pirog]

Lenseth>

I find it highly doubtful that Stalin would have signed a treaty with backstabbing Hitler.

I agree. Merely the revenge factor would have kept them going.
D-day and following (less fortunate) campaigns like Market Garden were made not only to shorten the war, but to win prestige for the western world. It wouldn't have looked good if Russia "liberated" the whole European mainland.

Poison gas was used during WWII. Not as much as WWI but it was used by Germany on the Russians and the Slavs in the Balkans during that time period. Germany also used poison gas to kill Jewish or others that Hitler didn't like during the Holocaust.

Well, I of course knew about the poison gas in the concentration camps...but the rest was news to me.

The only time that France was a military power was when Napoleon Bonaparte was in power and even then it was defeated by the British.

I don't agree with that. The French were for example succesful in the medieval times, when France was the awe of the rest of the world...

Plus the Napoleonic Era created many of the post modern problem we saw in Europe from the 1830's to the 1950's.

True. But it also spread the grounds for democracy.

I don't think we have screwed up in Iraq.

Wow...that is almost unbelievable.

Something that the major European powers have never come to grips with their Imperialistic Age.

That is such a vast screw up that I doubt it can ever be fixed, but don't for a second say that USA has made up with their past.
Many European countries are making symbolic apologies by writing of the huge debts that third world countries was forced to take, something that the Americans have shown very little interest in.
But as I sad earlier. Europe has a horrible past and made huge mistakes, but only a child would think that justifies USA from making the same mistakes again. For a historical view times were very different then.
The Europeans believed that the Africans etc. were subhuman, wich could justify much of their behavior in their eyes. Today we should be wise enough from those mistakes to not fall in the same traps again...

I don't think any person willing to strap bombs to themselves and blow themselves up to their creator has much hope at all.

That is a method of desperation. I really don't see much different between a iraqi rebel blowing himself up for his believes and an american soldier risking his life for the flag, his country bla bla.
At least the Iraqi has proper motivation...

The fact is that America has taken responsibility for what it has done in the past.

You can never throw something like that out and claim it as a fact.
It might be your opinion, but to make further claims is just childish...

[Pirog]

ephiroll>

You're the one who said Saddam and Hussain were "no more then movie crooks in our eyes". I proved that they weren't.

Good for you. If you read it again you will probably understand what I meant though.

Gas was used on prisoners during WWII by the Germans and Japanese in medical experiments, Germans on Jews, Japanese on Chinese.

Well, many of your own veterans believe that your government made the same ethical mistake in the Gulf War. I of course very much doubt that you see those claims as true, but you might consider it.
USA stands alone at preventing bans against landmines, cluster bombs etc. in the west...you have a rumor of "fighting dirty".
Even today I read that your government is considering allowing torture on "terrorists"...

And yes, Saddam and Osama were mistakes, mistakes we're now fixing.

But you are fixing a crack in the wall by tearing it down.
Even the IISS (International Institute for Strategic Studies), used by your government and pro-war, has made it clear that the world is less safe today than before the war on terrorism and that Al-Queda is still strong.
If you fix these mistakes and in the process create new ones that are ten or perhaps even a hundred times worse, you won't get that pat on your shoulder that seems to be worth so much to you.
You are still to hooked on the thought of the cavalry riding in and saving the day...but what about tomorrow?

Yeah, historically the French were one of the greatest military powers. But that doesn't make up for the fact that they folded like a deck of cards in the two wars that they were really needed in, they were tried against the best and they came out second fiddle.

It is always easy for a country that has never been invaded to point these things out. At the beginning of WW1 the American army was a joke. If you had been a European country you probably wouldn't have made a better stance than France.
The Germans was excellent strategists at both world wars...they excelled defeating France, but I doubt any other country would have faired better against them.

Damn straight, arrogance can be used as a weapon, ignorance just gets you killed.

I'm sorry...but I doubt I will be the only one smiling at the irony of Americans calling Europe ignorant.
You have a president that doesn't even read the paper, your youth have huge problems even finding New York on the world map and you have the stomach to call others ignorant? That's just rich.

[Lone Wolf]

I would just like to point a few things out. In the summer of 2001, before 9/11. The USA and Canada were working at getting rid of the lumber Terrifs, but after 9/11 and Canada not willing to form a full out attack, but still offering assistance the Terrif talks were ended.
Now lets not forget about this "Mad Cow Disease". The first cow detected to have this disease, was in Alberta. However the owner of the cow, produced papers to show that he had purchased the bovine from Montana. At which the USDA claimed to have inspected all cattle and that the papers did not pertain to that cow. However to this day they have yet to show any paper work to prove they even inspected the shipment. For years many cattle shipments crossed the boarder with out a proper inspection of the animals, only of the paper work. North Dakota still wants to prevent any Cattle from Manitoba to cross in to it's state, yet they are holding events in Winnipeg now, to try and get us to shop in thier state. I can already tell you that Most Manatobians have decided to bouycot North Dakota this summer, in which case Minnisota will be recieving our business. Trucking companies are even offering maps of the fastest route to the Twin Cities, with all stops in between.
I don't think it will solve anything, but I have canceld my trip to Fargo, and instead will be going to St. Paul and visiting some friends instead

[ephiroll]

Pirog>

I know what you meant about seeing them as movie crooks, and whatever point you think you're making about it is totally wrong.

There's a big difference between locking prisoners in a room and seeing how lock a gas takes to kill them, and screwing up and not testing something thourghly that is meant to help you own men, they dont' even compare. And no one hears a much from the few veterans who may think it was the "same ethical mistake" because those few are considered witch hunters and trouble makers, which is what they are. They willingly took what was offered and had the chance to refuse it, so anyone saying it is the "same ethical mistake" is just as responsible for their condition as the gov is for not properly testing the stuff first. And we learned to fight dirty from Europeans, don't b*tch because we're willing to do what it takes to win. And if you read anywhere that the US is considering using tortore on terrorists then it must have been in the comic strips, because after the things that have come to light in the last few months you'll be hard pressed to find an American that would even joke about that. If our government were to annouce something like that the protesters would pour out into the streets like cockroaches in this country.

Yeah, we're fixing a crack in the wall by tearing it down. Because no matter what you do with that crack, the wall will never be as good as it would be totally rebuilt. "Fixing cracks in walls" is what Europe has been doing for the last century, and it resulted in the two worse wars and the worse atrocities in human history. If you're going to do something at least do it right. Europe is so damned scared of making a mistake or someone not likeing them that it's paralized them into doing absoluty nothing. The world is a more dangerous place now, because the US isn't the only target anymore, you have to stir up the nest to kill the bees. And the cavalry isn't going to arrive, it's already there, they just havent' finished the job yet.

Yes, we've been invaded. Once by Mexico into Texas and once by Britian into New Orleans and they learned how big of a bad idea that is. There are people in this country that hope someone invades us so they have a chance to drag their own assault rifles out of the closet. Invading us is the worse mistake any country could possibly make and they know it, hell, I don't have any guns, but if I wanted I could arm myself with whatever I have the money to buy within 30 min if I wanted to. Our army was a joke at the begining of WWI, but that's because we didn't need an army comparable to any in Europe before we got dragged into WWI. We made out just fine with what we had before then.

The average European doesn't know any more about the world then the average American, it's easy to pick out the minority and say they represent the whole, but that isnt' reality. In reality a certain percentage of every country are f*cking idiots. The US has more people then most of the countries they're being compared to, therefore even though the "idiot percentage" is the same, its going to represent a larger number in one place then in another. And smile all you want. 10 years from now when this is all said and done we'll know who is right or wrong at this time in history, and my bet is that the laughter in the US will be heard all the way across the Atlantic, because that is what history says is going to happen.

[kroner]

Both Saddam Hussein and Usama bin Laden are people created by failed American politics, and killing them off in spectacular ways will only created ten times as many terrorists as you kill off.

amen

[Pirog]

ephiroll>

And if you read anywhere that the US is considering using tortore on terrorists then it must have been in the comic strips...

The article had the Washington Post as a source. I can see on the frontpage of http://www.washingtonpost.com that the subject is indeed discussed (under the headline: Ashcroft Refuses to Release
Memo on Torture Policy), but since I haven't got a subscription to the page I can't reach the article...

Yeah, we're fixing a crack in the wall by tearing it down. Because no matter what you do with that crack, the wall will never be as good as it would be totally rebuilt.

Sadly, it's harder to completly rebuild a country with a thousands of year old history, traditions, religion etc. than a wall.

The world is a more dangerous place now, because the US isn't the only target anymore, you have to stir up the nest to kill the bees.

USA wasn't the only targer before either. Stop making things up...
And I hope your "kill the bees" symbolism isn't reflecting a belief that your government could one day defeat terrorism all together...

The average European doesn't know any more about the world then the average American, it's easy to pick out the minority and say they represent the whole, but that isnt' reality. In reality a certain percentage of every country are f*cking idiots. The US has more people then most of the countries they're being compared to, therefore even though the "idiot percentage" is the same, its going to represent a larger number in one place then in another.

If you believe in that theory I'm afraid you are one of the "f*cking idiots"...

And smile all you want. 10 years from now when this is all said and done we'll know who is right or wrong at this time in history, and my bet is that the laughter in the US will be heard all the way across the Atlantic, because that is what history says is going to happen.

Well, if I'm right I sure won't be laughing...
(and what the hell do you mean with "that is what history says is going to happen?")

[ephiroll]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/ar ... 4May8.html

Above is the exact article you are refering to, you don't seem to understand that there is a difference between discussing interrigation techiques and discussing allowing torture on prisoners, a very big difference.

You're also over looking the fact that there are 5 British soldiers on trial for the same things those 7 US idiots did in the prison, you can learn more about that here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/3675215.stm But we don't hear people like you flaming the British? Give a good reason for that one that actually has some substance.

The wall isn't the people and culture, the wall is the government.

No the US wasn't entirely the only target, but they are the main target and have been for a long time. Hell, one little bomb in Spain was enough to scare them out of the war, of course that was because the "masses" voted in the other guy. Thing people don't like to admit is that the average voter in any country isn't informed enough to make any intelligent desicions about whether or not their country should be in a war, and the Socialist guy that got elected simply saw his chance to get into power and he took it, his nobility doesnt' go any farther then being able to capture the right people's attention at the right time.

It's not a theory, it's a basic truth, to deny that is to say that everyone in every country is equally educated according to the standards of that country, and since that isn't true, can't be true, and has never been true in any country in history, so therefore you end up with what I like to call the "idiot percentage".

If you knew history, and you obviously don't (you didn't know about chemical weapons in WWII, you don't know what Agent Orange is, you don't know how close Russia was to another civil war at the end of WWII, you either don't know or don't understand that the hatred toward the west was started way before the US ever stepped foot on any middle eastern land, and a whole list of other things I've had to correct you on so far) but if you did know history, you would know that things go in cycles and right now we're nearing the end of a cycle and beginning a new one, although the new cycle isnt' going to be entirely clear for another 10-15 years. The cycle ending now was begin with WWI and the US initial alignments with the European powers, the current cycle of history that is ending has been about European powers using the US to save their own skins and to clean up the mess that they made with the world. Now a new cycle is begining and the way it looks it's going to a cycle of war against terrorists and rogue states who are increasinglly thumbing their noses at the UN, but will also include the day that the US finally realizes that the trillions of dollars in forgein aid will be better used at home, and that's when the sh*t is really going to hit the fan, because there are many countries that wouldn't even have an economy if not for the money received from the US, there are some countries receiving more monetary aid from us then what their gross national product is.

If you have the intelligence to read between the lines history can tell you want will happen tomorrow. I for one am not surprised at all at the events of the last 3 years, why? Because I knew it was going to happen sooner or later and that it wouldn't be very long, one of the first things I said about 9/11 to someone was "I told you so".

Perssonally I think that most of the animosity comes from the fact that the US has accomplished more in slightly more then 200 years then what some European countries have in twice that amount of time. Hell, the simple fact that we can sit here and have this discussion is because the US Defense Department begin research in the 1960's that lead to the Internet. Where do you think the internet come from? Where do you think computer technology originated? While the the European nations were fighting civil wars in Africa and the Middle east after WWII to try and hold land they had zero right to, while Russia was slaughtering it's citizens by the hundreds of thousands, the US was actually working on something productive. Until the US was dragged into WWI we didn't even have a reason to have a real army, Europe f*cked us, clear and simple, and now they cower in the corner instead of taking responsiblilty for actions that they set into motion. See it's not what was done that bothers me, but the fact that none of them have the backbone to admit that they had a hand in it, and therefore bear part of the responsiblity for setting things straight.

[Pirog]

Above is the exact article you are refering to, you don't seem to understand that there is a difference between discussing interrigation techiques and discussing allowing torture on prisoners, a very big difference.

First of all, it wasn't up to me to misunderstand the article...since I didn't read it until now. I read a swedish article that used the above one as source. If that article is wrong I can't help it...
But

reversing the normal sleep patterns of detainees and exposing them to heat, cold and "sensory assault," including loud music and bright lights

is known as torture for the rest of the world...

But we don't hear people like you flaming the British? Give a good reason for that one that actually has some substance.

I have yet to see anyone applaud the British, so it has been more natural to focus on the Americans. But unlike you I'm not discussing this as you do. For you almost every argument is about putting USA as a better part than Europe. I on the other hand admit that Europe makes may mistakes too...arguing for patriotical points feels a bit silly to me.

The wall isn't the people and culture, the wall is the government.

Yeah...but you are so sure that everyone will embrace a democratic system after Western model. That is naive in my view.

Hell, one little bomb in Spain was enough to scare them out of the war, of course that was because the "masses" voted in the other guy.

Firstly, a bomb killing 200 people in American soil would probably swing the American opposition against the war too...and secondly, 90 % of the Spanish people were against going into the Iraq war even before Spain sent soldiers...so they would probably have voted a left wing government who would pull their forces out of the spectacle anyway.
You can pretend that you knew anything about the situation, but you are not fooling me.

It's not a theory, it's a basic truth

What you were saying was that pretty much every country has the same amount of uneducated people, measured in percentage.
I'm not saying that American people are genetically less intelligent than Europeans, but you ARE less aware of world issues, politics etc.
You can't hide from that.

If you knew history, and you obviously don't (you didn't know about chemical weapons in WWII...

Since you are trying to master me I would appreciate a source to your argument. I'm not saying that you are wrong...but I have been seeing other information. (Like http://www.vectorsite.net/twgas2.html)

don't know what Agent Orange is

I know what Agent Orange is, and I don't believe for a second that the American government was unaware of how toxic it was.
The Americans dropped enormous amounts of bombs over Vietnam, striking many civilians.

you don't know how close Russia was to another civil war at the end of WWII

I said that I didn't believe that the Russians would have stopped their amazingly succesful advance against the Germans since they had so much reason for revenge.
Again, if you want to convince me I would like a source...because it feels a bit silly that you are trying to master me in history when you are constantly missing facts. Whenever I correct you you don't even respond...you just drop the subject.

you either don't know or don't understand that the hatred toward the west was started way before the US ever stepped foot on any middle eastern land...

Now you are just making things up about me...

but if you did know history, you would know that things go in cycles and right now we're nearing the end of a cycle and beginning a new one...

Actually, on an academic level they meassure times in eras.
Now we are, for example, in the post-modernist era.
If these cycles are something else than your own inventions, please tell me about it...I'm always interested in learning new perspectives.
It helps me keep a more objective view on the world...you should try it some time.

but will also include the day that the US finally realizes that the trillions of dollars in forgein aid will be better used at home, and that's when the sh*t is really going to hit the fan...

I hate to bust your bubble, but USA isn't very generous regarding foreign aid compared to other countries, measured in a percentage of the BNP.

If you have the intelligence to read between the lines history can tell you want will happen tomorrow. I for one am not surprised at all at the events of the last 3 years, why? Because I knew it was going to happen sooner or later and that it wouldn't be very long, one of the first things I said about 9/11 to someone was "I told you so".

I don't think you were alone at not being surprised about 9/11...but it is a huge difference between not being surprised and actually knowing the future. It's always easy to say "I told you so" afterwards...

Perssonally I think that most of the animosity comes from the fact that the US has accomplished more in slightly more then 200 years then what some European countries have in twice that amount of time.

Haha, do you actually believe that?
During the 18th century Europe stood for thoughts that the whole world is built on today. I congratulate you for boosting your technological research when European scientists fled the Nazis, but at least be fair in your evaluation.

Hell, the simple fact that we can sit here and have this discussion is because the US Defense Department begin research in the 1960's that lead to the Internet. Where do you think the internet come from?

I'm not in any way denying the fact the USA has stood for a great deal of technological advancements in the post war era...but your arguments is one of a little child bragging.
Even a small country like Sweden has stood for a great deal of technology. To compare to your "we wouldn't sit here and talk without the USA", you wouldn't be able to move around on the web without the mouse, that is a Swedish invention.
And you wouldn't be able to fix your broken sink without the wrench, blow up things without Alfred Nobel etc.
So I don't quite see your point...

, but the fact that none of them have the backbone to admit that they had a hand in it

What do you mean by "it"?
World problems? The problems in the Middle East? Iraq?
The first two are problems largely caused by Europe, and we have taken responsibility for that. But past mistakes doesn't hinder our rights to critisize you for current ones.

While the the European nations were fighting civil wars in Africa and the Middle east after WWII to try and hold land they had zero right to

You mean like the whole continent America?
But oh, then you Americans usually shed responsibility and point out that your fore fathers were European...that is kind of funny, when we are discussing issues like having backbone.

[Pirog]

I will be away for a week, so a respone may take some time.

Please try to avoid turning my arguments into something I didn't say.
People has tried that trick before and it ended up with an argument so hostile that many people has fled political topics...