Mounted weapon system, naval warfare, vehicle cannons, etc

[AlchemicRaker]

I couldn't find an appropriate existing topic. What follows is a lot of suggestions for the full system.

Design of the actual cannon object (or mounted weapon):

must be constructed in a vehicle or certain building types
would be limited depending on where it is located (a large ship may hold more than small ones, who may have none at all. better coastal harbors could contain a few cannons)
Immobile (or perhaps draggable, but requires multiple draggers, like the draggable furniture suggestion)

Consider that cannons may be mounted onto land vehicles as well.
Land cannons may target other vehicles or buildings.
Ship cannons may target other ships, or coastal harbors.
Coastal harbor ships may target docked ships (or not??)
* (3/2/2010) cannon is a machine you can build on a ship. Only bigger vessels can have cannons (maybe those which dock only to port)



Cannon warfare system:

Cannons may be fired once per day (regardless of their target).
Cannons may double as containers (must be filled with a Cannonball object and some gunpowder resource, which are consumed when fired)
A skill for cannons (massive weapons combat) may be added?
* (3/1/2010) Cannons may require a 1-day project to become "loaded cannons". Firing a cannon would change it back to a normal cannon, and the loading project would consume the cannonball object and gunpowder resources.

Cannons always hit, but the damage they do will vary (heck, it is expensive to build and use, it better be good)
* (3/2/2010) when it fire, there is a random chance to deal random damage to a vessel. It would be harder to hit smaller ships, but a raft would be a instakill if hit.

Damaged targets will just use the existing deterioration system (buildings and vessels are currently repairable, but they don't deteriorate. so..?)


Handling Damaged Buildings:

Destroy any rooms inside of it, and dump the contents of all of the building out into the location. (when destroyed?)
Nothing may be picked up or dropped in the damaged building, until the building is repaired.
The building must be repaired before projects can be started in it (disables the use of machinery inside)
Enterable even if locked (the damaged building does not keep you from entering, even if you don't have the key)

Obviously, none of this applies to rooms on ships, because they are never targeted, only the ship is targeted.


Handling Damaged Vessels:

Decrease the vehicle's movement speed, to completely immobile when fully deteriorated. (Vehicle is never completely destroyed)
When fully deteriorated, the vehicle's lock does not work (so a ship's lock would not work, but the locks for the cabins and cargo holds would still work).
* (3/2/2010) Before complete destruction, a ship becomes immobile (at 50%?)
* (3/2/2010) Immobile ships can be docked to (like harbours).
* (3/2/2010) If a ship with too little rescue boats is destroyed, units of flotsam (debris) are created to accomodate the supernumerous sailors. This would give them the chance to reach the shore or get picked up by another vessel.
* (3/2/2010) Everyone in a big range will be informed that ship X fired at ship Y
* (3/2/2010) Destroyed ship drowns immediately. When there is no rescue boat docked to the vessel, all sailors die. If there is, they sail it now


Thoughts, suggestions? Did I miss anything important?

Cheers
- Natso


Edit: Additions will be listed as
* (date) New idea

[tazer]

I like it, but what's to stop a fully loaded galleon from beating the crap out of a dinghy making it immobile and no lock in just one go?

[returner]

I like it, but what's to stop a fully loaded galleon from beating the crap out of a dinghy making it immobile and no lock in just one go?

What stops that happening in real life?

[Piscator]

I would limit cannons to sea warfare and ships for now. If you wanted to use a cannon from a car, you would have to drive into the town and shoot at a building at point blank range (unless you could bombard a town from the road). Using the gunpowder directly or just taking a couple of sledgehammer would seem a lot more practical.

I also don't quite agree on how you intend to handle building damage. Being unable to work in an ever so slightly damaged building would make it impossible to implement normal building decay.

[AlchemicRaker]

Not necessarily in a slightly damaged building, and remember it was just one idea. Obviously, it wouldn't work if some of the others were in effect (like being unable to enter).


Also, understand that the vehicles would require mounting area. Like, you couldn't just build a cannon in any vehicle, galleons could hold like... 3 max, and smaller ships (longboats or something) might not be able to hold any at all. Similarly, most land vehicles might not be able to hold any cannons, but a Tank model could hold one cannon and be very slow for land movement.


Perhaps have a special case, where an immobilized vehicle (fully damaged), it becomes dockable by any other type of ship. For example, if a vessel that is usually to small to dock to (and so become stuck at sea without any source of repair materials, etc). Anyways, so this small vessel gets beaten the crap out of, and is completely damaged, and immobile. Well, then the galleon that destroyed it could go and dock up to the raft.

Or, perhaps a method of forcing another boat to dock to your own boat? Overcomplicating things, I think. Blech~ Maybe just make the minimum speed insanely slow, but not 100% immobile.

Cheers
- Natso

[Snake_byte]

I remember suggesting something very similar to this, no further than two months ago but can't for the life of me find it now.

[AlchemicRaker]

(edit) quote from Piscator in IRC, relevant to this idea

[quote=Pisc]before a cannonball could be loaded into a cannon, containers would have to be able to accept objects.
A reloading project might be a better alternative. This would take care of the firing once a day, too.

you would have to write a project type that replaces one machine (cannon) with another (loaded cannon)
if we want to have no more than a few cannon types it shouldn't be much of a problem. would be no worse than cooking meat[/quote]

(Added/edited this into the list in the main post, too)

I remember suggesting something very similar to this, no further than two months ago but can't for the life of me find it now.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=18684

I read over this. What I'm trying to do in this topic is discuss the entire system, rather than a single mechanic, since the entire system is required to justify the existence of each of its mechanics. Circular logic FTW!

- Natso

[BZR]

Honestly, I was going to work on it soon, but it demands quite a lot of discussion, preparation coding and GAB offical approval

[AlchemicRaker]

Honestly, I was going to work on it soon, but it demands quite a lot of discussion, preparation coding and GAB offical approval

Precisely why I started the topic. There is probably stuff I've completely forgotten. Do you have any notes or plans? I'm certainly not the best person to be designing any system for Cantr, to begin with.

Cheers
- Natso

[Snake_byte]

Cannon warfare system:

Cannons may be fired once per day (regardless of their target).
Cannons may double as containers (must be filled with a Cannonball object and some gunpowder resource, which are consumed when fired)
A skill for cannons (massive weapons combat) may be added?
* (3/1/2010) Cannons may require a 1-day project to become "loaded cannons". Firing a cannon would change it back to a normal cannon, and the loading project would consume the cannonball object and gunpowder resources.

Cannons always hit, but the damage they do will vary (heck, it is expensive to build and use, it better be good)

Damaged targets will just use the existing deterioration system (buildings and vessels are currently repairable, but they don't deteriorate. so..?)

I think the rest is good, but needs to be more... involved... Perhaps if there was a system of aiming, which allows us to input the co-ordinates of angle the barrel rises from 0-degrees to 85 deg. and, either shoot the direction your ship is facing, or 90 deg. to one side or the other.

Cannons were not always accurate but when they hit, look out...

[BZR]

I'm certainly not the best person to be designing any system for Cantr, to begin with.

Neither am I.

My few ideas, though:
- cannon is a machine you can build on a ship. Only bigger vessels can have cannons (maybe those which dock only to port)
- you can build them also in port
- you can have only fixed number of cannons on one ship. Different sizes are welcome
- loading cannon is a one day project. Takes gunpowder and a cannonball
- when it fire, there is a random chance to deal random damage to a vessel. It would be harder to hit smaller ships, but a raft would be a instakill if hit.
- Everyone in a big range will be informed that ship X fired at ship Y
- Destroyed ship drowns immediately. When there is no rescue boat docked to the vessel, all sailors die. If there is, they sail it now;)

What need to be done before we start
- buidling and vehicles detorieration
- -//- repeairing


Dangers:
- we must care not to change Cantr into Unreal Tournament.

[Piscator]

- Destroyed ship drowns immediately. When there is no rescue boat docked to the vessel, all sailors die. If there is, they sail it now;)

That really seems like a pretty radical solution. In terms of land warfare this would be like having no shield at all and weapons only available to the richest 20 men. Most ships would be utterly defenseless. I see how this system could become frustrating pretty fast.

Apart from that, there must be some way to force an enemy to surrender. If a pirate attacks another ship, he doesn't want to destroy it, but rather get its cargo. You also can't expect any good RP if you don't get to see the other crew.

If we agree to use the initial suggestion, I would like to add two things.

- Before complete destruction, a ship becomes immobile (at 50%?)

- Immobile ships can be docked to (like harbours).

- If a ship with too little rescue boats is destroyed, units of flotsam are created to accomodate the supernumerous sailors. This would give them the chance to reach the shore or get picked up by another vessel.

[BZR]

That really seems like a pretty radical solution. In terms of land warfare this would be like having no shield at all and weapons only available to the richest 20 men. Most ships would be utterly defenseless. I see how this system could become frustrating pretty fast.

Is it really so dangerous? Now it takes two people to instakill somebody if they are just a bit lucky. If it takes 5 shots to kill a raker, it takes 5 day to destroy a ship singlehanded, assuming you don't miss. And it can sail, dock to harbour, and everything. And with any boats docked you will be almost untouchable.

[tazer]

- Destroyed ship drowns immediately. When there is no rescue boat docked to the vessel, all sailors die. If there is, they sail it now;)

That really seems like a pretty radical solution.

I think this isn't too radical because it really isn't that hard to dock another ship to yours as an escape ship.

[tazer]

I like it, but what's to stop a fully loaded galleon from beating the crap out of a dinghy making it immobile and no lock in just one go?

What stops that happening in real life?

Nothing but what stops a galleon from sailing up to and forcing a dinghy to dock to it (Rope it or something or even just ram and board) Nothing. What stops it in Cantr is that they didn't want people on big ships to easily capture little ships.