Barricading Buildings

[Saalko]

Hi I had a small brainstorming. Because I have actually a problem with a really annoying char, who uses the game mechanic to annoy other players and destroy there roleplay.

Situation: An char has a building, with many stuff and a few rooms inside. He sit the whole time with an open lock inside and does nothing (ignoring my notes.). One or two times he comes for 1 RL minute outside to hit a person and drag weak people inside into another room, where they can starve -.-.

This is destroying the game. I actually play one of my 14 chars (1 starved to death.) Because when I play Cantr I look at this char wait that he comes out that I have a change to drag him away into a building that I can start playing Cantr again.

Some proposals:


1. Chars weight 0 grams (At the weight check) if they wanna enter a building. If they are inside they could weight again 60kg. If the maximum weight is to much, Noone can't join a project. The peoples can only take things from the ground and carry them outside. So persons can go inside but only without a shield or a weapon or something. (If they could take 500 grams for a wooden shield or a iron shield and a crowbar, this would be really good.)

This only work if the room is open and the maximum amount of chars inside isn't reached.

(Maybe you can only start drag person and dead bodies projects and join them. So that the "dead body in vehicle" problem is solved.


2. You can start dragging things or people out of open buildings. Maybe randomly (take the hide, or the iron shield on the ground). And at a maximum amount of 50 kg or so. Or the first position.


Mh I had one or two more ideas. But it is 5:20 am. Time to sleep.

[Cdls]

It is not destroying the game, and will certainly make you consider throwing so many things into one room :lol: :lol:


This has happened before and has been dealt with, so *shrugs* live learn!

As for the ideas, they have been suggested numerous times before, none of them wanted for one reason or another.

Yes, it is highly frustrating and annoying, but it can be RPed...believe me, a whole people were displaced because of this at one time.

[Saalko]

It can't be RPed, when The one inside don't react and only is in there to kill newspanws. -.- And weaker people.

[Piscator]

Cdls, I have to disagree. This flaw in the game mechanics is destroying the game as it gives one person unstoppable super-powers for no good reason at all. Just because it has been dealt with before doesn't mean it's no problem at all. You can not seriously suggest that moving a whole town because of something like this is a valid option? That would be like saying: "Your bike is blocked? Well, build a new one. You can deal with it in game."

[Arenti]

The problem is here that two chars are in a shack inside a cottage with two murderers in the cottage. And they blocked it so no one can get in and my char can't get out. Yes I agree it's destroying the game a little. as one of the chars locked up (mine) had a great future of bringing back life to the island he is on. But I didn't bother of complaining before because I know it's useless. Though I will really need to be changed. Because this gives people an unfair advantage.

[Arenti]

And how do you want this to be role played? The two killers inside refuse to talk. And if they do it's ridiculous demands as they want gold and such lol.

And isn't the suggestion of being able to drag resources from the outside accepted?

[BZR]

It is not destroying the game

In my opinion it is destroying the game.

[Doug R.]

I had always considered this a feature as opposed to a bug, but I'm willing to change my position. Let me think out loud here on this page.

Current precedents:

Note/Knock spamming - not allowed because it is an OOC attempt to annoy the player, not the character.
Machine sabotage - not allowed because it's intended that characters should be able to clear their own machines, but they can't.
Blocked land vehicles and buildings - we clear them, because it's not reasonable to expect players to wait years to be able to get inside.

Blocked ships - we only clear them if they were recently blocked, out of fairness to all those who over the years tried to salvage ships but couldn't. However, now that I examine this policy in light of the previous precedents, it seems somewhat contradictory. If someone died naturally on a ship, and the ship is blocked, it should be cleared, just like a building (if a ship with room docks to it). If someone dies and purposely blocks the ship (say, as a defense against piracy, "If you kill me, you'll never get aboard"), then that seems to me to be sabotage in a way, and also smells of annoying the player. Having a policy exception for this also doesn't make sense, as anyone with access can clear blocked ships without leaving fingerprints, so any staff member against this policy could clear any ship they wanted without detection. I think it's time this policy is revisited.

Cantr is designed to be a slow-paced game. We have rejected, multiple times, proposed mechanisms like insta-kills that would make the game "fast." Since wars are primarily won or lost based on who has the most locks, it can be reasoned that being dragged into a building from which one cannot escape nor be rescued from, simply because another living character is standing in a capacity room, is akin to an insta-kill, especially when the obstructing character is PKing with no roleplay. We already accept that characters should be able to clear rooms of dead bodies themselves but cannot - so we do it for them. A dragging mechanism for this has been in accepted suggestions for a long time. However, should characters be able to drag out a living character?

My position for a long time has been "no." If I want to barricade myself in my home, I can do it. I can pile stuff up against the door and board up the windows, making entry impossible. Because of this, my position is that, if a character has the available material to barricade a room, then they should be allowed to do so. HOWEVER, what I cannot do is then exit my house, grab a cop, drag him into my house, lock him up, and re-barricade the door and not expect to get shot and the dwelling stormed the minute the door opens. Using this logic, doing this is clearly wrong, because it violates the slow-paced nature of Cantr, and as such can be considered an exploit.

The situation in Blackrock Forest ended when the player unsubscribed and the dead body was removed from the building by staff. There was no in-game solution other than the entire Blackrock tribe packing up and moving. Truthfully, this was generally accepted by the players, not because they agreed with what the character in question was doing, but because nearly everyone hates the Blackrocks, and seeing them driven off by one character just tickled us. But let me be blunt - if the Blackrock tribe could not come up with a suitable in-game solution to deal with this problem, then no one can.

So this is what we are faced with, as I see it:

Characters should be able to barricade themselves inside dwellings.
Characters should not be able to exploit barricades as weapons.

I want to expand a bit on legal barricading. Back to my original RL example - I can barricade myself inside for as long as I want, but the people on the outside have options. They can cut my power (not relevant to Cantr). They can employ psychological warfare, like playing Barney music at 200 decibels (but annoying the player isn't allowed in Cantr, so this won't work). Last, they can take brute force approach and blast me out, just like they did to those cultists in Philly back in the 70's. But we can't do that in Cantr either. So let's add another to the list:

Characters should be able to disassemble buildings.

So, that's my new position on the matter. Now, what do we do about it?

Also understand that while we can generate a policy and come to a consensus about a fix, if a member of programming doesn't put time into implementing it, it will come to nothing. The GAB recently adopted a new policy of having a programming member sponsor a project before we waste too much time developing it. Does anyone in programming wish to take implementing any solutions to this problem as their own project?

[Piscator]

I thought a bit about the issue yesterday already and one way to solve the problem by game mechanics would be to apply the people and the weight limit separately, for different aspects of the game (as their names suggest).

The weight limit (probably) was intended to limit the amount of materials you can store in a room and the number of machines you can build. If it was intended to block out chars, a person limit would not have been necessary.
I therefore suggest to allow entering and moving through buildings even if the weight limit is reached, but prohibit any action that would increase the weight even more, that is, dragging stuff into the building, dropping things and working on projects. The room would become unusuable while overcrowded, but people would still be able to enter and clear it out.

edit: As an interim solution I would say we reconsider our policy until a technical solution is found.

[Arenti]

I love that idea! How fast can you implement it?

[Doug R.]

That's a clever idea. Two points:

- It eliminates barricading of larger buildings entirely (unless you're using sleepers)
- It doesn't solve the problems with shacks, which can be effectively barricaded with only 3 characters.

The first point I'm willing to cede, (or at least revisit in the future with a post-implementation fix).

On the second point, it seems that it'll only solve the problem for barricaders who don't have two friends to help them. I don't like incomplete solutions (but the idea by itself, independent of the problem it's trying to fix, has merit).

But yes, a policy solution is code-independent and can be implemented immediately. I'll start the proper votes in the proper forums.

[Arenti]

So let me get this right. If this gets accepted it can be implemented quickly and my char can get out?

[Piscator]

Okay, then let's increase the people limit for small buildings and vehicles or get rid of it altogether. You would then be able to squeeze six people into a shack, but since they would still count toward the weight limit, they couldn't do much more than stand and talk.

Furthermore, vehicles shouldn't be able to move while the weight limit is exceeded (or perhaps extra slow). We could thus set the passenger capacity of a bike to 2, which would allow you to enter it to remove a body, but not to use it as a tandem bike (as that would exceed the weight limit).

[Ronja Rotschopf]

in my opinion a future technical solution shouldn't make it impossible to barricade yourself for your own safety

[Doug R.]

So let me get this right. If this gets accepted it can be implemented quickly and my char can get out?

If the policy is changed, we would require your captor to release you. It needs to be voted upon by the staff bodies that will be enforcing it. If your character is being starved, you may have a chance. If you're being attacked, then I doubt your character will live to see the vote concluded. Sorry, but that's the way it is. The current policy is that it's legal, and we can't change it until the departments agree.