Dragging and killing is too easy. Should need more people...

[Drael]

^ well i dont know if you know me, but im definately not stuck on solutions, more trying to create discussion. I agree the outcome of battles should depend more on the strengths of the parties, not dragging, stealth attacks, buildings, healing food, or tea.

Im kinda sad that I learnt all this tick based fighting stuff, because its a cowardly way to fight not fitting at all my warriors charries RP, but being the required standard stragtegy (hide in builidings, on road, have lots of tea and healing, move in on project or travel tick, break locks, drag people, attack and then hide again)...:/ So favours the criminal mind.

Im keen to hear other solutions to the problem, and your a pretty smart guy, piscator, any ideas?

[Piscator]

o.ô Thanks?

My combat solutions tend to meet little approval, but since you asked I'll repeat them. I think for a fight being fair, the attackee should have the ability to strike back at his attacker. This could either be achieved by auto-retaliation or by delaying the actual attack until the victim had a chance to log in (or a certain time has passed). Both ideas have their problems though and a ruleset which would allow a tuely balanced combat would likely be pretty complex with many exceptions and sub-rules.

[Drael]

Oh yes I remember now auto-retaliation. We are on the same page there and we agreed.

Defence project -> Auto-strike anyone who strikes you, and cant be dragged.

Might not solve the whole problem of strike, drag and hide attacks, but would help alot there.

Now if I recall, there wasnt _major_ support for the defense idea, but there was even less objection. That means its a good idea people like, generally, but not enough people get that its important to the game. Maybe in time the idea will build.

I remember my parry/defence project thread got more technical objections than practical..

[BZR]

Current system is retarded in my opinion.

[Arenti]

I would have no problem with auto-retaliation and would even like it if was a chance for it and not always. And then indeed I come back to sparring with wasters or just with fists. With auto hitting back it would use the strongest weapon right? Or some way the system should recognize with what is being hit.

Also dragging a person should make someone more tired. As sneezing shouldn't make you more tired than dragging someone.

Also in the time I have played Cantr, I only have had 2 chars killed for no reason.

[Wolfsong]

I wouldn't mind personally if penalties for being tired were harsher - right now it just drops your attacking power, correct? I think the more tired your character is, the slower they should move, and the more easily they should be able to be dragged - so even a powerful character, if exhausted, should be able to be dragged around by a few weak people, or a single weaker person who is not tired. Maybe even make it impossible for exhausted characters to move or work on activities other than resting?

Would this at all affect the problem you're addressing?

[Dudel]

I wouldn't mind personally if penalties for being tired were harsher - right now it just drops your attacking power, correct? I think the more tired your character is, the slower they should move, and the more easily they should be able to be dragged - so even a powerful character, if exhausted, should be able to be dragged around by a few weak people, or a single weaker person who is not tired. Maybe even make it impossible for exhausted characters to move or work on activities other than resting?

Would this at all affect the problem you're addressing?

Most of that is already sorta kinda implemented.

Tirdness makes your characters chance to hit go down, their effectiveness at working on any project and makes them easier to drag.


Oh and the problem with auto attack is that people didn't want the game playing for them (or others) as the current system is "the only way" to "kill anyone" and adding anything makes "killing to hard".

[Snake_byte]

The only way I'd agree to Auto is if it were a chance, done at 10-15% Strength at highest, and didn't use up the one day hit.

[Arenti]

The only way I'd agree to Auto is if it were a chance, done at 10-15% Strength at highest, and didn't use up the one day hit.

LOL.... That would be no use at all. if only at 10% the damage done back is not even much if a person would be able to attack for 60 normally.

[Ruby]

I think a lot of the problem is that attacks happen instantly and then you can hide. If you aren't awake every minute of the day the attacker has a huge advantage. He can pop out hit a few people and then hide back inside resting.

If you want open-faced combat the only way to do it would be to make attacking a project just like everything else. Where it may take a turn or two to follow through.

I'm sure this system could be abused as well of course. If the attack only takes one tick people could start it just before the hour shifts and go right back into hiding, solving nothing. But if it took maybe 2 ticks and the project reset to 0% when no one was working on it then that would make things a bit more open and give characters at least one hour in which they can properly defend themselves.

I'm not sure if that solution tips the balance too far in the other direction though. As now whenever someone attempts an attack there is a whole hour they have to worry about being dragged away or detained.

[SekoETC]

In real life if someone got attacked in public, other people would be alarmed and they would either run away/into safety if the threat is considered serious enough, stand and watch if it seems unlikely that they are going to end up targeted or go closer to yell at the attacker or charge at him. The same thing with animal packs, they flee or they fight, or they keep a safe distance and run if the scary person comes close enough. But in Cantr everyone just stands in one spot and cannot defend themselves or others.

It would be interesting if there was a level of artificial intelligence so that characters would naturally avoid things that are likely to cause pain, but could learn to overcome the flight reflex through training and determination. Attackers would also have a built-in sense of self-preservation and if they saw a large group of townspeople closing in on them, they would require great determination or foolishness/insanity to carry on with an attack. Also when a person is beating someone up, they are generally exposed to attacks coming from behind, so lonely attackers would be vulnerable that way. People could fight back to back with an ally or in larger formations. But moving like that would require allowing a single player to control the movements of the group if the others are offline, and there should be an automatic chance of chickening out to balance things out. People could define that they're ready to sacrifice one's life for somebody, or that they are ready to stand damage up to a point before deserting the group. Well, Cantr is not a fighting game but it is a society simulator, and as such it should allow people to work as groups without requiring people to be online when ever something happens. There's just the problem with making things boring if everything was made into a project.

[Cdls]

The problem with that though is that you would have to hide the project otherwise people will be able to just drag you away somewhere before you could even complete a hit.

I can see the RP elements though:


Char1 "Oh look, this man has his sword raised in a highly threatening capacity!"

Char2: "Yes, I am going to strike you down!"

Char 1: "Oh no!"

an hour goes by

Char2: "Any minute now, you will feel my wrath!"

Char 1: *stares at the still raised hand of the attacker, yawns and shrugs* "anyone awake to help me drag?"

[returner]

I agree with the problem, but not with the solution. The outcome of a fight should roughly depend on the relative strengths of the parties involved, not on who strikes first or on who has the most tea in their inventory.

Agreed!

One proposal I suggested over 4 years ago was this:

Firstly, reduce damage inflicted to about 20% of what it is currently. Then introduce turn-based attacks, meaning if I attack you, I have to wait for you to attack me back before I can strike again, or I can wait 1 day. (bear in mind we are only doing a fifth of the damage now).

That way you can spar with someone to the death, provided they are online and awake. IF they need to log off, then the fight can be continued later.

A little more realistic I guess? or at least a bit more fair.

[oddedd]

I love this suggestion! However, maybe there should still be a limit to sparring, maybe 5 times or something.

[Piscator]

That's essentially what I meant by:

delaying the actual attack until the victim had a chance to log in (or a certain time has passed)

My idea was that after announcing an attack you would either have to wait a full day or until the target moves (including attacking, running away, perhaps talking) for the combat move to be finished. But as I said, a workable system that covers every eventuality would likely be very complex.