Faster water production

[Pyroman]

In my humble opinion the water production in cantr should not be so big problem, as it is now. If we look on real world almost every country have excess water, i know that in cantr we look on water in different way but few peoples working on water project is a little exaggerated. Cantr should not be a place of mindless working creatures and production of water, the resource that should be available big quantity for everyone (especially if cantrians will start to drink to survive) is showing us that something is not all right. So in my point of view the problem is not only in quantity of production water and useing it in project but in conception of water. Water have it value but only in few place on earth and normally we treat it as something daily, something that we should not care of. In Cantr it looks like someone is trying to show that water have as big value as for example gold. So I don't really understand this especially if water can be produced in every place. Water have different value in many places .. some villages almost don't use water but in other water is needed in kilograms per day. To solve this problem we have to look at it different point of view. We should ask ourself is water need to really be strategic resource?

[Snake_byte]

Because of all the new things implemented (mainly fuels) water IS needed.
Gold isn't even that valuable in Cantr... Even if it is rare... Value depends on usefulness as well as rarity and difficulty to make said thing of value... Water CAN be gathering in any town, but not every town's priorities are the same.
Water is leaning on many other things in the database, Change one, you change all...

[Joshuamonkey]

I'm trying to understand what both of you are saying.

Pyroman, it sounds like you're saying that we should get water exaggeratively easy, or it least significantly easier, because with water being most anywhere is makes sense.

Snake_byte, it seems like you're disagreeing with what Pyroman says in his argument, yet agreeing with the need to produce water more efficiently, because it's needed.
However,

Water is leaning on many other things in the database, Change one, you change all...

I'm not sure where you're going with this. Are you saying we shouldn't change water because it changes so many other things?

My opinion is that we should change it, by adding an easier way to get water, basically an advanced water pump/noria, or by multiplying the numbers. I don't think that the changes this will cause in water-made products would be a reason to not change water. Rates have been changed before, like potatoes and carrots, and other than almost having a sailing almost die from starvation, I don't think that had much of a lasting effect. Adding a new way to get water will still have less negative effect than changing the rate for all methods. By negative effect, I mean people being mad about all the water they've gotten suddenly being worth less.

Plus, since it's large towns we're concerned with mostly, it's worth noting that a new water gathering method could specifically solve that problem. It's the large towns that need it, and the large towns that can pay for it.

[Snake_byte]

In Cantr it looks like someone is trying to show that water have as big value as for example gold. So I don't really understand this especially if water can be produced in every place. Water have different value in many places .. some villages almost don't use water but in other water is needed in kilograms per day. To solve this problem we have to look at it different point of view. We should ask ourself is water need to really be strategic resource?

So I responded:

Because of all the new things implemented (mainly fuels) water IS needed.
Gold isn't even that valuable in Cantr... Even if it is rare... Value depends on usefulness as well as rarity and difficulty to make said thing of value... Water CAN be gathering in any town, but not every town's priorities are the same.
Water is leaning on many other things in the database, Change one, you change all...

I'm saying yes it is a strategic resourse but if we raise the gathering values too much it'll change a lot of other things. I'm pretty sure more than one person can work on a pump...

[Rob Maule]

If a town was serious about getting water and had both a well and a water pump (only one of each per location), plus the maximum four people to work them, they would collect 1,200 grams of water per day. You could get even more if you had more people using buckets, for which there is no limit.

That's more water than they could probably use the following day. Even if you had only one person working a well, they still couldn't use up enough water the next day to run anything other than a pot still.

It's only when you starting using lesser technology, like water skins, that you have to spend a lot of time getting water. And that's the point. If you don't invest in bigger and better machines, you're not going to get the results you're looking for. Also, if you're just a single person, you're also not going to make much. That's the penalty for doing things alone.

So I think the collection rates are probably fine the way they are. If you compare getting water to making iron or steel, water isn't that scarce. And you can get it anywhere, unlike traveling to three different locations to get materials for iron and steel.

[Joshuamonkey]

At least with iron and steel you have the potential of making it very efficiently, through proper trading and drills.
I don't know how much water one would typically need in a day though.

One person working on a carrot harvester can feed 34 people each day.

[Rob Maule]

It should also be mentioned that water isn't really that neccessary. It could be argued that only food is neccessary, but I mean that just about everything you might need water to make can be made with something else.

The hot topic right now is vehicle fuel. Yes, water is needed to make alcohol and biodiesel. But you can also use petrol, which is made from oil, and propane, which is made from gas. Water-based fuels are just an extra option.

You could also use water to make healing foods and liquids, but there are tons of other alternatives. Same thing with building materials (mud and brick).

Even growing herbs and flowers in a garden isn't neccessary. Flowers can be used to make clothing, but you have a lot of options there. If you really wanted flower clothing, you could travel and gather them manually, just like any other resource. Same with herbs.

[Rob Maule]

One person working on a carrot harvester can feed 34 people each day.

One person with a well, wooden bucket, and three casks can make enough sake to heal about 3% per day (spread over 6 days), assuming the rice is already gathered. Not the best method of healing, but it's pretty equal to grapes, for instance. If you really wanted to get healed fast, you're better off ditching water.

But, say, you wanted to heal yourself with seaweed, that's not even 1% healing per day of gathering. And there's no way to get seaweed faster. In that case, you're better off getting water to make something like sake.

[Joshuamonkey]

(this is off topic, but what would really be nice is a better way to get cotton. A couple of my characters have spent so much time picking cotton, it would probably be faster to go to another island and get hemp)
Herbs are also used for healing apothecary mixtures, but that goes back to your other point.

Let's get the numbers out:

(Using the highest possible machines and tool, not including the use of petrol)
Getting the potatoes and wood takes almost .2 days. (.19583)
Barley: .11429 days
coal: .05
= .16429 + 800 water = 275 alcohol
Value = 1673.869

Corn: .11494 days
+ .05
= .16494 + 800 water = 250 alcohol
Value = 1515.703

Potatoes: .0625
+ .05
= .1125 + 800 water = 200 alcohol
Value = 1177.778

Rye: .17391
+ .05
= .22391 + 800 water = 300 alcohol
Value = 1339.824

Wheat: .11111
+ .05
= .16111 + 800 water = 250 alcohol
Value = 1551.831

Wood: .83333
+ .05
= .88333 + 800 water = 100 alcohol
Value = 113.208
Right...
Anyway, the winner is barley for most efficient method.

With a well, getting 800 grams of water takes two days.
Getting 275 alcohol takes 2.16429 days (not including making it, since it's an automatic project).
Alcohol usage factor for Engine A = 3
Alcohol usage factor for Engine B = 3.75

fuelusage = engine * (vehicle_minimum + ((vehicle_maximum - vehicle_minimum) * (current_speed/maxspeed)**6))
I'm missing some variables here...

[Rob Maule]

Getting 275 alcohol takes 2.16429 days (not including making it, since it's an automatic project).

According to the wiki, I think the bus with engine B is the least fuel efficient vehicle. It gets 1.75 grams of alcohol per pixel. If two days of work were able to get me over 150 pixels, that would probably last long enough to travel to any adjacent location and back, right? I'm not too sure on road lengths. Anyway, to me that sounds like the water collection rate seems fair in fuel production.

[Joshuamonkey]

Oh, I should've checked to see if the vehicle pages had those numbers. Maybe after I sleep I can figure out these pixels.

The pixel (the width of a single pixel on the map graphic on the Location page) is used as the standard distance unit of the wiki because it is used in the base coding of Cantr. Vehicle speeds are measured in pixels per day.
The map graphic is 35 pixels square, centered on the character's current location; therefore the map covers a visible radius of 17.5 pixels to 24.75 pixels, depending on the direction.
Characters can see (and therefore point at, talk to and attack) characters 5 pixels in either direction on a road.

Walking
A character with an empty inventory travels at a speed of 10 units per day on any road type. Tiredness and damage have no effect on traveling speed (this is true for vehicles as well).
Walking speed = 10 - (inventory weight)/5000
Road vehicles
Vehicle speed = (base speed)*(road factor) - (load / weight effect)

Maybe after I sleep I can figure out these pixels.

[Piscator]

I'm sorry we're so slow to announce the changes, but those numbers are outdated. Fuel consumption rates of engines will be completely different and it's likely they will be changed again if we see they are too high or too low.

The pot still projects in the wiki are definitely outdated. Alcohol production will be as water dependant as beer.

[Cogliostro]

Great. Would it be possible to add a way to acquire water from the tears of my characters? Most of them will be doing a few buckets a day thanks to all these fuel changes and water conservatism.

[Ruby]

Is it possible to implement a new type of resource which gives water at an increased rate and place that resource in coastal towns? Or maybe differentiate fresh and salt water and let salt water be easier to gather but have to go through a desalting process?

[Piscator]

Ideally you should be able to just dip a bucket into a lake and get water at a very high rate, but that's not possible technically yet.