Drastic Reformation of the wiki

[Yaddy1]

Remember when there were universities? Notice how they've disappeared? I Blame one thing for this. The wiki.

The wiki has basicly stripped Cantr of the element of scientific development. While characters should of reading and writing notes on how to make objects or on the purpose of objects the players just wiki whatever information they need. I believe that this has removed an interesting part of the game.

To fix this either the players need to improve their roleplaying or the wiki needs to be fixed to not display as much information.

PS: Yes I know everyone will hate this idea.

[Gran]

Seems a reasonable idea.

*handing torches, pitchforks and big signs of 'WIKI KILLS RP' to everyone*

[viktor]

i'd hate to admit it as handy as the wiki is. you have a valid point, nobody writed up lists of items and how to make them in game much nemore

[Dudel]

While I'd like to say that I don't use the Wiki in a manner you say and I only RECENTLY even learned how to make iron. (Ask Seko) If not for the Wiki, in general, I'd not have joined Cantr AT ALL.

Also, a lot of things can be argued for and against.

One of the easiest being that newspawns start in the world at 20. Nothing says that they DON'T know how to do <whatever> as there are 20 unaccounted for years of "learning".

Not to mention that the items in game give very obvious, "You need this, this and this" instructions to make the items. One only needs "work backwards" if so inclined. Thus, no need to "RP" again. The Wiki could be removed... and then people would request this information removed as well.

My note on this subject is that if YOU put forth effort in a process then others might follow suit. I have seen a few of my own behaviors "filtering" throughout the world and I don't interact with enough characters for that to happen.

Final Thought: The Wiki can not be outright removed, which was not the idea here, and if information WAS removed there would have to be some form of MASS consideration. I personally don't care one way or the other, as I found out IG but its usually through menu diving, but recently I did use it to check how "effective" asparagus was vs potatoes. The character wouldn't care either way but I was generally curious.

Simple "first day things" should AT LEAST remain within the Wiki. Not talking bone items, but new players can be GREATLY discouraged by the "Stupid Newspawn" behavior of a lot of characters when questions are asked. It is assumed by a LARGE bit of the player base that "everyone knows" so it might discourage new players to know EVEN LESS then they do upon spawning.

[catpurr]

I just got myself a copy of the whole thing before you come up with stupid ideas.

[Dudel]

I just got myself a copy of the whole thing before you come up with stupid ideas.

Wow, that is NOT how one should handle a situation.

[tiddy ogg]

The whole reason the Wiki was introduced was because players got fed up with newspawns asking the same questions over and over. True, the fault is in the lack of RP skill in those who think their newspawns should know everything... but then, what are those first 20 years for? The bright ones could have used that pre-spawn time learning all sorts of things.
I know when I started I knew nothing and no-one would tell my chars how to do things. I didn't quit, just, but I'm sure a lot did.
You have to know the basics, and that's what the wiki's for, but indeed there is a case for restricting/eliminating fancy project descriptions.
On the other hand, if your chars want to try finding things out for themselves... you don't need to use the Wiki, do you?

[Rebma]

See I'm like Dudel in that I don't seem to use the Wiki like others, and even after years of playing, there's stuff as a player I don't know. I use the Wiki mainly when I'm curious about something after encountering it in game. I never even used it when I started, either time (I don't even know if it was there the first time)

I'm not sure about this suggestion. For sure the first day info needs to stay, but the rest, I'm on the fence. I don't think the Wiki is particularly evil, because you say players just wiki what they need to know instead of trying to learn in game. You take the wiki away, they'll have other ways to avoid having to rp it if they really want (ooc, forum, irc, email, IM). Not to mention all the older players who have any important information memorized (should we wipe their memories?) and thus their characters (new and old) may not ask.

The more I think about it, the more I don't really see the point of this suggestion, other than to make you believe people will actually rp with you about this stuff if you remove the wiki. Which isn't guaranteed as Rp can't be forced and players do what they want.

I guess I'm no longer on the fence, though I really don't care, this suggestion doesn't affect me in any way.

[*Wiro]

I think that the Wiki does display too much information. But it's useful to look up things, like when I found out you can make iron nails.

[joo]

I use the wiki to clarify how hard-coded elements of the game work, when that information isn't evident from the interface (which it often is); however, I never RP characters as immediately knowing things which they shouldn't from their experience and observations (I may have done so in the past when I was a noob, but not now).

Removing the wiki (which I'm aware the suggestion isn't about) would of course not solve any problems, as people would just resort to other OOC sources of information. A lot of work has been put into it, so it's certainly still a valuable and valid asset.

To fix this either the players need to improve their roleplaying or the wiki needs to be fixed to not display as much information.

I think that the best solution would involve both parts of this sentence. Of course, we cannot force people to RP better, but not much will change by just editing the wiki.

As for the parts which should be removed, I have some ideas as to what may be purely technical information that is useful for deciphering the minutae of how individual processes in the game work, and what belongs more in game.

Information like how many resources are required for a project, how many people can use a machine, whether a project is manual or automatic (or semi-automatic), how many and what cabins and sails can be built on a ship, are fine, as they pertain only to individual tasks which a character might wish to undertake.

Information, however, which might help somebody to forumalate a general idea of what their character wants to do, is less valid in my opinion. Lists of what a particular resource can possibly be used for, descriptions of the value and effectiveness of items relative to others (such as "the bone spear is the best weapon that can be made without metal"), perhaps even the speed of ships and the effects of foods and healing/energising foods, could be removed to make the wiki more "RP neutral".

So yes, Yaddy1, I agree with you to some extent; however, is this what you meant by 'reformation'? Perhaps you could elaborate.

[Yaddy1]

To elaborate I agree that, certainly the first day and game dynamics sections should not be removed. They are important so that new characters know exactly what they're dealing with in getting involved with Cantr.

However (to get to the worst part) things such as "How to Play a Role" simply categorize what types of characters there are making new players who are not adapted to a game like Cantr think that the game falls into such a pattern as a game with jobs and classes.

Additionally I agree with Joo when he says things should be RP neutral. People should NOT be told how to use an item.

I also agree that its much to late to mass remove most information from the wiki as old characters would still remember most of that info.

Basically my point is the wiki shouldn't tell you how you should play the game because Cantr is all about doing what you want. There should only be general information on there.

[Doug R.]

I use the wiki constantly. The information I use in it isn't anything I can't get in-game, however. It just saves me a considerable amount of time, and frees me from keeping tons of informational notes. I think its benefits outweigh the drawbacks.

[SekoETC]

The thing is, when a newspawn asks how to make a bone knife, how do you explain it in-game? Usually it's not about them not knowing you're supposed to pick up a bone and sharpen it, but you need to locate the button for the manufacturing menu, which is at the bottom of the page so you only see it when you scroll down, and it's only named in the tool tip that pops up if you're smart enough to hover your mouse over it, then you need to have the bones in your inventory at least if you're going to automatically add the resources to the project, you need to get the bones from somewhere, either pick them up or get some from hunting, add the bones to the project, go to the activities page and join the project. And if you want to enter a building or travel, you need to click the X to drop the project. These rules are obvious to people who have played a while, but for someone who has just started, Cantr interface can be very confusing. Why do we even have icons? We might as well have short text links like take, copy, drag, read, store, eat, use, fix, wear. They might be longer in other languages but they could be displayed in a smaller font.

[tiddy ogg]

Seko, all the text you speak of is there in the form of alt txt tags to the buttons. You suggest that hovering the mouse over them displays this. If so, all you need is a note in one of the items mentioned above for new players to do such hovering.
But maybe all browsers don't have this feature.
(Reminder - I don't see any icons and have to navigate thus.)

[SekoETC]

Yes, by tool tips I meant the alt texts. However some users might not realize that they contain important information, at least people who are not very computer-savvy. Generally people learn it when they accidentally leave their cursor on top of an image and the text appears, making them realize that other images could also offer similar information, but until then they might solely rely on trying to decipher the icons, which are not all self-explanatory.

If the buttons/action links were displayed under an item rather than before the name, the rows would be shorter and maybe two items could be displayed per row, reducing the amount of scrolling. Granted, this is related to the interface and not the wiki, but if the game was clearer and easier to use, there would be less need for OOC instructions how to use it.