Cantr Regional Development

General out-of-character discussion among players of Cantr II.

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Solfius
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Postby Solfius » Sun Sep 21, 2003 7:40 pm

OniKaze wrote:
Solfius wrote:I'm most interested in the tribes, as there is nothing like them on cantr thus far. If they fail then I'd like to see the empire all powerful, as there are still few empires compared to democracies


Tribes? Fail? I think not. Muhahahahahahahaha!
::gets a psychotic power hungry look in the eyes :twisted: ::


That's what I like to hear ;)
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Pirog
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Postby Pirog » Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:11 pm

rklenseth>

Um...it really shows that you are from America.
I would say that about every country in Europe, and definately in Western Europe, has a more democratic and fair court system that in USA.
And the same goes for the elecion system.

It is like you Americans are so proud of your democracy being so old that you are afraid to modernize it :P
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Postby rklenseth » Sun Sep 21, 2003 11:57 pm

I don't know what you are talking about, Pirog. I never said anywhere in my posts about which court system was fairer. I was just talking about some differences between the two that I heard about.

And if the election system wasn't fair in American than we wouldn't have two parties of totally different political idealogies in power. And in America presidental elections aren't decided by the popular vote but an electoral college started when the USA came under the US Constitution and away from the Articles of Confederation. It worked then and still works today. President Bush won the elections fair and square. Everytime they recounted those votes in Florida, Bush still came out on top. Now if some people can't vote right and accidently voted for the wrong person well thats their problem and their fault. Believe it or not, President Abraham Lincoln got into office the same way and he is considered the greatest president who ever lived by most people. The person he ran against, Douglas, got most of the popular vote but Lincoln won the electorial college. Lincoln also suspended Habeus Corpus, rewrote the constitution, and took away the right of the states to put people into enslavement. Now I know you probably don't like Bush because he is a conservative and all the stuff he has done but don't blame that on our election system; he was elected fairly and if Americans don't like the way he ran thing then he will get votes out in 2004. I don't agree with the two party system (Hey, I heed George Washington's words in his Farewell Address).

Also, I don't know much about European Courts except what I got from European History and there wasn't much on the European modern courts. But I would like to hear what you think is unfair about American courts and what is wrong as I do not know where you are coming from. And remember, there are different courts that do different things so you will need to clarify what court you are talking about.
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Postby rklenseth » Mon Sep 22, 2003 12:07 am

And, oh, by the way, America isn't a democracy, persay. We are a Republic. There is a difference between the two. :wink:

And you could have known I'm an American since is says that I'm from New York (not the city mind you).

Also, I would like to hear what you think isn't modernized about our government. We just got most of our ideas of structure of our Republic from the Greeks and the Romans but most of the ideas put into the government came from Renaissance Thinkers such as checks and balances and so on. So I would like to hear what is wrong with our government and what you would do to fix it.
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Postby Meh » Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:11 am

:shock:
Last edited by Meh on Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Nick
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Postby Nick » Mon Sep 22, 2003 4:32 am

Missy wrote:I think you are right when you say Quillanoi is set up to be a democracy--However what their view of a democracy is/and what the US' view of a democracy is has recently been shown to be diff as I've seen for myself. LMAO @ some things in Quillanoi right now. :)


I find the opposite. People in Quillanoi make references to the real united states constitution, and laws that have been made in the states. People assume that since Quillanoi is a democracy then all laws made in the states apply in Quillanoi. Simply a breach of the capital rule. The american system took a long time to implement and change (not done yet, either). You cant just set up a democracy and assume that all common laws are in effect. They have no codified laws, yet they charge people for crimes such as disturbing the peace... back in the times of uncodified law that was not a crime. Quillanoi has the good basis of a democracy, but its hardly even started to become a true democratic state. They need a set of codified laws, and their own UNIQUE democracy..... not all democracies are exactly like the states!
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Solfius
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Postby Solfius » Mon Sep 22, 2003 5:48 pm

I agree strongly
rklenseth
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Postby rklenseth » Mon Sep 22, 2003 6:18 pm

I don't see the references to the US Constitution in Quillanoi. The disturbing the peace thing has been around in Quillanoi since Mayor Keldorn Firecam so I would say that is part of the culture even if it isn't a codified laws.

I would agree that Quillanoi isn't a democracy yet. It has a long ways to go but I think it will get there eventually unless another Cromwell comes along. I do find interesting as where it is going and I think the Constitution there creates a very strong structured government. The only problem is finding active characters to hold those positions and I have noticed a trend in Quillanoi that very few people care to be a part of the government while places like Siom and Tircqi seem to have a huge surplus of people wanting to get involved. Siom I see is turning into a tyrannical democracy where one person has power because he is respected among the people. Tircqi is a democracy that I can't catogorize. It is always changing but last I had a character there, Erin Yest's anarchist ideas were the ones that were being followed but there was a core group of other people trying to get a more structured government where the government actually had some power and wasn't just a figurehead. But I do find it interesting that democracy seems to pop up there while most locations just allow the people they respect come to leadership position or people take power through violence or threat of. I also find it interesting that in the Cantr City (AH Mining Company & GM Company, DoUrden Estates), Blaman (BEST Company, GM Company), Alenz Hills (AH Mining Company) are mostly run by companies and not governments. Just some interesting trends I have been noticing.

The Republic of the Unites States of America is not a democracy, it is a republic. I've always been told that there is a difference between a democracy and a republic but because they are similiar in many ways people miss the key differences.
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Pirog
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Postby Pirog » Mon Sep 22, 2003 11:56 pm

rklenseth>

The biggest problem I have with American courts are that poor people get crappy defenders that doesn't care what happens to their clients.
I'm not in any way an expert on the American justice system, but having such an unfair lawyer system AND using primitive penalties like executions isn't exactly what I call fair...and the three strikes system that some states have are totally inzane.

Regarding the election system I don't understand why you haven't got a more direct democracy, where every persons vote counts.
If one state votes a 100 % for one of the candidates and another 51 % they still get as many "points"...right?
Or have I totally got the election system wrong? (I can always hope)

I also think it is crazy that big commercial companies can sponsor a candidate...it is pretty obvious that it works like a giant bribe.
Bush backing down from the Kyoto agreement probably has a lot to do with him being sponsored by oil and steel companies...right?
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Postby Meh » Tue Sep 23, 2003 12:19 am

:shock:
Last edited by Meh on Sat Sep 27, 2003 6:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
rklenseth
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Postby rklenseth » Tue Sep 23, 2003 2:19 am

Pirog wrote:

Bush backing down from the Kyoto agreement probably has a lot to do with him being sponsored by oil and steel companies...right ?

David Goodman wrote:

And of course that has something to do with it.
But the real problem is the cultrue of that party. Better economy at all costs. The are old and just want to pass more money to thier successors who can live away from the pollution. I don't support the oppoisite preserving the environment at all costs. There's a balance it is just difficult to find it between the extremes.

Back to me:

Alright, what do you think an American President is going to back up, a foriegn industry or an American industry. He must answer to his people first because they are the ones who gave him the responsibiliy to run their country.

Pirog wrote:


Regarding the election system I don't understand why you haven't got a more direct democracy, where every persons vote counts.
If one state votes a 100 % for one of the candidates and another 51 % they still get as many "points"...right?
Or have I totally got the election system wrong? (I can always hope)

David Goodman wrote:

You have it right.
The arguement for it is that the politcos come out here and visit us in the "flyover" states and at least consider our needs before ignoring them after election. Popular votes would make voting in the non-coastal states a small segement.

Back to me:

Thats just it, we are not a democracy. We are a republic. America has its way of doing elections. That is our way to elect our President.


On to the other things. Public Defenders are great attorneys. They might not be as great as a million dollar attorney that would be bought by a celebrity but they take great honor in doing their job and preserving the right of the innocent suspected of a crime. And if you are a minority then you will get an attorney from the ACLU or some other minority group.
I don't agree with the three strike rule. I believe that is only in California and I am a citizen of New York. Nor much I can do about that since I am not a citizen of California.
And David Goodman said it best; criminals in America live a life of luxury in jail. They more luxuries than most middle class and better benefits. And quite frankly many Americans aren't too happy about that. I do believe though that the death penality should be used in only extreme cases such as Timothy McVeigh but I would like a lot of these luxuries these criminals get taken away from them. They didn't earn them while law abiding citizens who have can't get them.
Soft Money is illegal now anyways before so many days before the actual election. That was passed through Congress and signed by Bush after the presidental elections.
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Pirog
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Postby Pirog » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:06 pm

Alright, what do you think an American President is going to back up, a foriegn industry or an American industry. He must answer to his people first because they are the ones who gave him the responsibiliy to run their country.


But almost all the other industrial countries are ready to reform their industries to save this planet...because that is what it is about.
You can't always look for profit, especially when those decisions are killing people all over the world.



Thats just it, we are not a democracy. We are a republic. America has its way of doing elections. That is our way to elect our President.


Yeah, but still you are so proud of USA being the worlds greatest democracy...that is often said by American leaders...kind of strange huh?
The elector system is a remnant from times when it was impossible or at least very hard to count every persons vote.
Defending a poorly working and outdated system by calling it a republic isn't a very good excuse. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that the elector system makes people feel alienated from the decisions that are made.

And about public defender being great I don't agree...there are a lot of horrible stories about people being sent to jail because their attorneys pretty much slept thry their trial.
And I think pretty much all prisoners would like to exchange their "luxurius life" for freedom. Instead of locking them away and releasing them full of repressed anger and contacts with other criminals you should try to reform them back to society again.[/quote]
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Postby Jos Elkink » Tue Sep 23, 2003 1:44 pm

Hmm, 'republic' and 'democracy' are different things, but they are not mutually exclusive, are they? They simply refer to different aspects of the constitution. The Netherlands is a monarchy and still democratic; the US is a republic and also democratic. What kind of electoral system is fairer is a matter for discussion of course - I always like the fully proportional one best - but in general both countries are considered democracies.

Just to avoid stupid confusion, I would take the following approximate definitions:
republic - president as head of state;
monarchy - monarch as head of state;
democracy - 'that institutional arrangement for arriving at political decisions in which individuals acquire the power to decide by means of a competitive struggle for the people’s vote' :) ... that's a definition by Schumpeter written in 1943 (in political science there is this big debate whether this is enough, or you need some kind of concept of liberalism in it as well ... but I like this clear definition better).

About the English court system: I must admit that I am not 100% sure about what I said. I simply cannot imagine that there would be a respected democracy where the accusor does not have to prove the accused is guilty. Maybe I was just naive :) ... It sounds scary to me if that were the case. But this came up referring to Quillanoi - how would it be the case there? Yes, people are detained before there is solid proof, but the US police also arrests people before the court case is done, not? The main problem is Quillanoi is simply the inactivity of the Senator (due to the player being absent, albeit eager to start playing again) and the court cases are postponed too much.

It is interesting to read all those things about political systems in Cantr. As said many times before, that is one of my key interests when I created the game, and I am really happy there is indeed quite some diversity in systems. It is indeed striking how influential companies are, but I am not sure this is that different from how it has been in the real world. At least the Dutch 'Verenigde Oostindische Companie' (VOC) was really powerful in all Dutch colonies in the 17th century. Are there more real life examples?

And about the companies in Cantr, I think the Cult Mechanicus in Quillanoi is also fairly close to running the city. They don't make the laws or run security, but they are by far the largest employer and have the most developed regional system. But I hope there will be some more competition in the future ;) ...

Are there other democracies in Cantr that are somewhat similar to Quillanoi? Where there is a constitution?
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Solfius
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Postby Solfius » Tue Sep 23, 2003 6:22 pm

My personal opinion, which is biased of course, is that the Cult is the most labour absorbing company, but also the most able to spread over an indefinite area, whereas some groups looser structure restricts them.

I wouldn't say the Cult runs the city, but I think it could certainly start to wield more influence if it wanted to, especially seeing as it is the only competitor for political power against President Russell's party.
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ephiroll
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Postby ephiroll » Tue Sep 23, 2003 10:40 pm

Solfius wrote:My personal opinion, which is biased of course, is that the Cult is the most labour absorbing company, but also the most able to spread over an indefinite area, whereas some groups looser structure restricts them.


Yes, the cult is getting rather large...I know I have an eye on them :wink:
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