Foreign Influences in English Language

[Lyd]

I am attempting to move this discussion to this thread as to not further derail the Cantr Organizations thread. Anti couldn't log onto his account and asked me to post this:

<Anti> "I find the argument over whether words absorbed into common english are a capital rule breach or not absurd, particularly as we are using "English" in a game where there's no England, if words are commonly used by a majority speaking that language then the should be as fine in game, if not more, as some of the far more obvious and literal influences from real world culture."

[amika-babilfrenzo]

Okay, in the other thread someone said that you shouldn't use words that haven't been in the language for more than 200 years. What about slang and idioms? Even if it comes from within the language itself, phrases like "over the top" and "cool" are newer than many of the fixed foreign phrases that have entered the language over the years, yet I doubt it would be a CRB to say "cool."

It's impossible to avoid every influence from the outside world. So the one's we should try to avoid should be the one's that give people unfair advantages. I doubt you could hold a meaningful French conversation using the few phrases that have entered English, therefore using them should at least be tolerated.

[catpurr]

Okay, in the other thread someone said that you shouldn't use words that haven't been in the language for more than 200 years.

Words like radio, car or soldering iron.

[BarbaricAvatar]

It's not a CRB to say 'cool' or 'botty' or 'zits'.

Something like 'Deja vu' i'd say is acceptable also, since it is used commonly in the English language.

But saying 'C'est la vie' with your EZ char is not allowed.

[Piscator]

Actually I can't see what would be the harm in that.

[Gran]

Okay, in the other thread someone said that you shouldn't use words that haven't been in the language for more than 200 years.

I said it. But I said that solely as my opinion.

Simply, if a word has not originated within your own language or within languages that have influenced its formation, let's say Old Frankish and French, the use of that word would not be appropriate IN MY OWN OPINION (Dudelesque capitalization required). Not using these words is something that I try.

Words like radio, car or soldering iron.

Just defending my own opinion (because one must do it sometimes):

- The word radio, in itself, would not harm in any language with Latin influence, since it comes from "radius", Latin for "ray". Potential for the existence of the word is thus contained within a Latin influenced language is guaranteed then, even if it might seem silly within our virtual reality that all peoples chose this particular neologism over other words.
- "Car" was not born along with the Model T. Remember that before people installed pieces of steel moved by explosives in their vehicles, those were moved by horses and oxen.
- "Soldering iron" also doesn't seems to be a problem either, because both words existed way before people created the first soldering iron.

Something like 'Deja vu' i'd say is acceptable also, since it is used commonly in the English language.

But I'm pretty sure it can be translated. After all, it is just the French way to say that you really saw your friend being slapped in the face before it happened and that you're not just being a prick.

And... That's all I have in my mind right now about the subject (I think).

[catpurr]

More common english words which are actually french. [ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_En ... nch_origin ]
-
accident
bomb
castle
deja vu or double
enjoy
foyer
gay
hazard
ivory
jargon
liqour
....
-
A language is just not so a closed entity as some want it to be.

My opinion as a rule of thumb, if you can find it in the english wiktionary its common use enough already.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/deja_vu
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/r%C3%A9volution

[Piscator]

- The word radio, in itself, would not harm in any language with Latin influence, since it comes from "radius", Latin for "ray". Potential for the existence of the word is thus contained within a Latin influenced language is guaranteed then, even if it might seem silly within our virtual reality that all peoples chose this particular neologism over other words.

The interesting point is though how a language becomes latin influenced. They don't start this way (otherwise they would be latin-based). If it is entirely acceptable that a language absorbed foreign words 200 years ago, why is it not today?

[*Wiro]

I don't think the viva la resistance thing is OK word usage when playing an English character. It's too not-English in my opinion. All those other words that were/are French are all common words, not a phrase that got popular through South Park.

[Piscator]

I thought it became popular through the French Revolution.

[catpurr]

I thought it became popular through the French Revolution.

I too, the french revolution, first start of a democracy (greeks dont count), really important event for anybody living in a free country.

And yes it is more than 200 years ago and known in many languages.

[*Wiro]

Well I guess that says a lot about my history skills. I really thought it was this South Park song.

[Gran]

More common english words which are actually french.

Just for stating it all: Accident is in use since the 14th century. Bomb is in use since 1684. Castle is in use since before the 12th century. I won't look up the rest because it all seems to fit into my generalist idea of what words are acceptable (in case it doesn't fit, a mere adjustment and there ya go).

Déjà vu on the other hand is in use since 1903 solely, that is, the time that French psychoanalysis was at least a bit influential. Besides that it is a word that feels alien. Those are my grounds for saying that in my opinion I wouldn't use it.

For "Vive La Revolución", since it is a complete phrase, I think it would be ruled out. No opinion matters involved or dates. If you really want to get dates into it, just think that there was more than one revolution in France - Besides 1789, there were 1848 and 1871.

If it is entirely acceptable that a language absorbed foreign words 200 years ago, why is it not today?

Well, because I said it so. And it's not like I'm an authority on English. I can barely grasp English verse and metrics. You say what you think that is acceptable or not, I believe that... Actually, I don't even care much about the ideas that I stated.

Screw it. I'm gonna create my own language! With games, liquor, hookers, and a lot of polish vowels!!!

Know what?! Forget the polish vowels! They're too complicated.

[catpurr]

For "Vive La Revolución", since it is a complete phrase,

You want to forbid phrases? You know what actually all is a phrase?

Well I'm with Piscator, we should reconsider what this Rule was about before it became a "goal of its own" when we talk about the use of individual words.

The rule was such to weaken unfair advantages for people who speak multiple languages.

It was never because we wanted to secure the "purity" of any language. Languages are not pure and never have been. IMHO you cant say, oh well since thousends of years the language grew by accepting new words and phrases into it, but now it is over!

Therefore if one english character understands single foreign wordy or phrases that have gained much popularity in english no harm is done. He still cant have a meaningful conversation with a french just because he knows what "vive la revolution" means. A phrase for which almost any educated english person knows or can guess quite easily what it means.

[Doug R.]

Moved to general discussion, as it doesn't belong in support.