Products decaying/Objects Breaking

[Drael]

"Nessesity is the mother of invention"

It occured to me in a recent discussion about economy that objects breaking or products decaying would add to many many dimensions of the game.

By adding to production, more complex society and trade can form.

Currently societies and individuals survive on the scraps of stagnent possessions. Kingdoms and culture could form with the need to provide goods, or maintain them. Bronze and stone more inferior to steel could provide economies. More roles, complexity and fun could be had if more co-operation were needed.

The potential with this is very high IMO.

My suggestion for the mechanic is as follows. Objects would have a low probability of randomly braking, if they are mechanic, tools, weapons etc. It would be related to materials, bronze weaker, steel stonger. As the material degrades with the existing mantainance level, its chance of breaking would be stronger. Mechanics, buildings and electronics would only break if doing poorly in maintainance.

Seperately food would degrade more quickly, and preserved materials such as wine, salted meats etc less so.

The increased need for co-operation would create more roles, more complex society, more culture etc.

There are two downfalls. One can be dealt with. Litter. Broken or rotten obejcts can simply disappear.

The second is that small, tradeless towns may die. The advantage is larger kindogms, towns and trading routes, as well as roles will emerge.

[Xervicx]

I like this idea. Tools wear out and decaty, so why shouldn't food? It makes sense to ad that to the list of Cantr's features.

[tiddy ogg]

Huh? Tools decay, food rots outside. The potential is there for houses and vehicles to decay, but is not yet implemented.
So, what's new, apart from the random breakage... and is it worth the bother, considering the outcry it would cause from the same people who reduced the decay cycle so much.

[Genevieve]

I wish locks would decay - they should BEFORE the building crumbles if we are going to do building decay

[catpurr]

Yes.

I wish stuff would still decay when "stored" in repair projects. I know lots of people do it, but I for one consider it an exploit.

[Cogliostro]

I think it already does decay when it is in repair projects. Been there done that! Got the badge. Didn't help with trade one whit. I am starting to think the entire scarcity-model has some kind of seductive unconscious appeal for "civilized" people such as we are, and it's probably based on something disgusting, like the fear of becoming useless and hence unwanted in society. Somehow, we are convinced that we must always bend over backwards to appease the demand of our peers, whoever they are. This is the origin of "exciting new roles" and suchlike that people imagine when they make the mental picture of how everything has broken and/or decayed away, so now it has to all be made anew again.

Mistake!

Sisyphus was the founder of one famous kingdom who got cursed. He had to continuously roll a giant boulder up a steep mountain, only to watch it come crashing down each time he reached the peak with great effort... And so into all eternity! This is the same exact thing you are being autoerotically seduced into in your fantasies about world decay. In actual fact, Sisyphean destruction of everything achieved by past generations (just so that we can all push really hard to roll the boulder uphill again) is by far not the only, nor the best way to encourage cooperation between people.

[Piscator]

Wouldn't a simple "no" have done?

[Elros]

You know Cogliostro, you actually made a really interesting point there... Why has Cantr pretty much stayed in the same state of technology and society for hundreds of years? It is because each new generation is simply rolling that same boulder back up the hill. Every generation wastes their time cooking food to stay alive, and constantly repairing tools and other items. No matter where the generation before them gets, the next generation has to start all over and it is a never-ending cycle.

Now we have people suggesting that we make the food in storage rot, and other items decay as well. We are moving backwards here. Your characters will now spend the majority of their life cooking food every single day so they can eat it before it rots as well as repairing the same dang tools over and over again.

What a fun game...

[Piscator]

Pardon? That's how the game should be. Sadly, it's far from that now. Nothing against keeping the achievements of former generations, but new generations should at least have the option of a fresh start. There is hardly the need to do anything these days, because it has already been done by earlier generations.

[Elros]

Pardon? That's how the game should be. Sadly, it's far from that now. Nothing against keeping the achievements of former generations, but new generations should at least have the option of a fresh start. There is hardly the need to do anything these days, because it has already been done by earlier generations.

Is that how it is supposed to be...? Cantr is a society simulator. Society progresses with time and becomes more advanced in technology and lifestyle. New generations build upon the knowledge and resources achieved by older generations. Life in essence becomes more intelligent and easier as time goes by for the most part. Where is any of that in Cantr??? Every newspawn has to collect potatoes and build bone tools. They work for a few years and end up getting clothes and a sabre and iron shield. They then work a few more years and get a vehicle or boat and then set out on their own adventures. Eventually with time they get a decent amount of resources and then they horde them up until they die. This is the vicious and monotanous cycle that Cantr has fallen into...

[Marian]

Now we have people suggesting that we make the food in storage rot, and other items decay as well. We are moving backwards here. Your characters will now spend the majority of their life cooking food every single day so they can eat it before it rots as well as repairing the same dang tools over and over again.

What a fun game...

I know there were some more extreme suggestions on the subject, but mine was only that raw food should rot (at the same rate it does now) even in storage.

Also I think there is some middle ground between 'OMG I have to spend a day cooking food every day just to eat for a day and now my stone pot broke and I guess I'll starve' and the completely stagnant towns you see where a dozen copies of every tool are locked up in storage and there's a 100 kilos of carrots in a public building so there's no reason for anyone to actually do anything anymore, so players of established chars stop checking them more than once a week and short of someone having a heart attack newer ones have no way to get ahead.

I actually think tools are basically okay as they are, as long as I don't have a billion unnecessary tools my older chars don't find it too tedious, and I've had plenty of newspawns that got their first job doing repair work, or are simply given tools because some older chars now realize there's no point in hoarding. So I think that's working as intended, at least in towns that have some something approaching active leadership. (well okay broken tools might be cool if instead of disappearing they required resources to repair).

But food is much too plentiful and easy to come by. It would be cool if someone could get paid to cook for the town (maybe running restaurants would finally have something besides RP value...), or if food was actually a valuable trade good again.

People who do currently do nothing but stand outside farming all day could still do the same thing, so I guess this wouldn't fix the heart of the problem, but at least they would either have to check their characters more often or there'd eventually be one less sleeper taking up space.

[Doug R.]

Life in essence becomes more intelligent and easier as time goes by for the most part. Where is any of that in Cantr???

First point - How old is Cantr? A little over 135 years. While there certainly has been a lot of growth in a similar period in modern history, the further back you look in time, less and less significant advances are made in the same period. I mean, do you want Cantrians being shot into space in 5 real life years?

Second point - It's an open-ended game in close-ended development. Unless the game would somehow simulate technological progress and invention, something very difficult conceptually to code, advancement relies entirely on the availability of staff to implement new technology.

Three - even if there was perpetual tech upgrade, it wouldn't matter at all so long as the elite continue to restrict the best tech to themselves and their friends. Here's an example: Right now, the DOW cost of iron in my town is about 70g, because of tech advancement (drills, quarries, etc). However, people still come into town demanding trades at the "artificial" standard of 20g iron per day. I'm more than happy to rip them off, but when it's flipped (buying something from me), they storm off in a huff. Now I won't even accept iron any more as a trade good. Another example: There's probably more vehicles in Cantr than characters now, but the leaders hold all the keys. Even if tech advances, this hoarding practice will not go away.

That said, making things decay (all things) discourages hoarding, because people would rather give something away than see it rot.

The game has tech limitations, but it's ultimately player behavior that stifles life for the underclasses.

[Piscator]

The reason why there seems to be no progress is that most English towns already have reached the peek of technological developement and the reason for that it that takes almost no effort to maintain it.
Your observations about the usual career of a character is quite true, but what has that got to do with a few repairs and having to gather a little food once in a week? As you mentioned, people tend to pile up resources and the only reason why a newspawn isn't given a bike, battleaxe and ten pounds of iron as a spawning present is that hoarders keep resources artificially rare. Fortunately, I might say. That way you get at least the impression that your work is worth something, which it is not.

[Doug R.]

Which is why I want building decay to start being implemented.

[Elros]

Which is why I want building decay to start being implemented.

Ditto, I completely agree with building decay!