How common is sex in Cantr?

[Lotos]

For me, this whole "Sex in Cantr" thing brought up an old question again: how similar to humans are Cantrians? (This question itself, however, is a topic on it's own - I don't want to spark an off-topic discussion in this thread)

Especially because of this sex discussion, I'm leaning more towards:
Cantrians are quite, but not completely similar to humans, especially when it comes to, well, procreation. In short: Cantrians are not born, so there's no need for sex. And to take this a little further: there is even no knowledge of sex.

That's the way I decided to go with my characters. If that's ok or not is questionable, of course, but beside the point, at least in this thread.

The point here is why I decided to go that way:

The concept of indulging in "written sex", be it as in RPed sex in Cantr or "cybering" in a chatroom is completely and utterly lost on me.
I like sex in real life , I like imagining things, I even like to read erotic stories, but, call me a bad roleplayer if you want, RPing sex in text form(*) doesn't appeal to me at all.

That's why I'd like something like a flag that says "No Cantr sex please", as it was suggested somewhere around here. When I take a look at the poll, there might be quite some more people who'd be interested in something like that


As for the legal aspects of this matter, as mainly Seko and Sunni pointed out, to be honest I'd try to see to it that either sex or minors are banned from the game, just to be on the - more or less - save side.
(Guess what I'd rather see banned )
I'd not want to be in Jos' or the PD's shoes if some parent does overreact when seeing their children doing "dirty stuff" in some online RP game.

On the other hand, Seko has a point there: seeing animals have sex or being in close proximity when parents have sex or even getting married at 12 was common, at some time in the past or another. Maybe our time is a bit... tense when it comes to handling this matter (and too open with it on the other side - just try to count ads that use the famous "sex sells" method for one afternoon, be it on posters or on TV)

(*) (RPing, let's say, the buildup of sexual tension in a pen and paper game with acutal people sitting around a gaming table is yet another matter - given that I know the players well enough this can be quite interesting. So, the text form seems to be the problem, not the RPing.)

[*Wiro]

If minors are banned from the game, I quit. >.<

But there are also people who are over 18 and wouldn't want to be exposed to sexually explicit writings, would they have to lie about being under 18 to set the flag differently?

Well, then just make it a question, "Are you ok with roleplayed sex?".
Then if kids are ok with it, it's just like a kid going in a cyberchat and saying "26yo chick lookin' for cam2cam, hot titz hmm" AKA Lying.

Don't think it really will matter... if you sell alcohol to someone under 21 because they had a fake ID and the end up hurting or killing someone.. it still goes back to the one who sold the minor alcohol. Yes, it was a fake ID but no, you should have been able to tell the difference.

Oh? Do you ever take a look at most of those 14 year old girls nowadays? Anyone would think they're older than 18. Like, in Belgium two 14 year olds got married a while back without proving their age.

Dominos continue to fall

There's no need for roleplayed sex to achieve that, really. Puberty is a terrible time. T___T But anyone below 14 shouldn't be allowed to roleplay sex imo.

Writing, is an artform.

Writing about sex isn't?

Again, I am not telling anyone what to do.. tis your own choice. I just felt that the promotion of sex and rape in a game is not such a good thing.

Where does Cantr promote sex and rape? Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it promotes it. I mean, I could rape someone if I wanted to, does that mean the Netherlands promote rape?

Yes, young minds are curious.. and they need to be nurtured and fed with knowledge.

So Cantr has apprenticeships and the kids learn about it in a safe way, without AIDS and pregnancies.

[SekoETC]

Well, then just make it a question, "Are you ok with roleplayed sex?".

That would be acknowledging that it happens.

Writing, is an artform.

Writing about sex isn't?

Bingo. I think it can be but others might disagree.

Where does Cantr promote sex and rape? Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it promotes it.

I guess she means that it's not forbidden, people don't get banned for doing it. It would be good for Cantr to write a terms and conditions page that says the game isn't responsible for what people write inside it (or for the pictures people upload on the server).

I think if sex in Cantr was banned, people would still continue doing it in secrecy but they might stop using normal emotes to avoid getting caught. Instead it could be done through editing and erasing notes, or even exchanging emails or messenger ids on a note and doing it outside the game. That would quickly turn from role-playing into cybering. Also there would be problems with where to draw the line - would it still be ok to rp hugging and kissing, if yes then how about French kissing, hugging while wearing nothing worth mentioning and so on. The easiest way is to just keep it private and pretend it doesn't happen.

Also I suggested in some other topic that characters should be allowed to pick a third (neutral) gender to avoid being treated according to gender norms borrowed from real life.

[joo]

Also I suggested in some other topic that characters should be allowed to pick a third (neutral) gender to avoid being treated according to gender norms borrowed from real life.

And how could someone possible RP with a character whose gender they did not know? It would either be extremely boring, or borrowing from fantasy/science fiction games. It would also create a third class of people who would need to be explained and have their own place in society.

Sex (the act of procreation as well as the identity provided by gender) plays a large part in social interaction. It can stimulate love, jealousy, chivalry, anger, hate, curiosity etc. and, honestly, Cantr just wouldn't be interesting if all people did was kill animals and treat each other the same. Trying to restrict such a fundamental part of real life in Cantr would be asking players to RP in a fantasy world, which Cantr definitely wasn't intended to be.

If you want to play characters who never have sex, then simply play them as such. Of course, the remote possibility remains that they will be raped, but that is also the case in real life. If you feel so passionate about the subject then why not play a character who tries to become the dictator of a puritan-style society where women are physically segregated from men. Nobody will complain about that because it's part of the game - there is a "rule" against having sex, but it is still within the rules of the game to break it.

[Dudel]

Personally I have ONE character that has EVER 'had sex'. This character also had some horrible ties to it as well. As for the other FIVE they are rather difficult to get to close to. Even one, whom IS in a relationship, wouldn't even know what the word is LET ALONE what else went with it.

First thing: Sex RP can be rather forced at times. My character does this because he 'thinks' its okay but at the same time is overly afraid of the entire situation. 'Sex' should be 'found' in game not pre known knowledge. If another character 'introduces' thats one thing BUT spawning as a 'horny dog' is ANOTHER. Something should lead to the idea/practice/etc of sex before its 'spewed out' of the characters mouth or even a thought in their head.

With regards to Cantr as a whole, I hear TOO MUCH about it. If its THAT COMMON then perhaps there is INDEED 'an issue'. Then again, its VERY common IRL as well. You just don't hear about it. Really its the assumptions that are made by other players/characters. Its a small town (even the big towns/cities in Cantr are small compared to 'normal' constraints) so everyone is going to 'know' this person and that person went into the building to do 'something'. Then again, Perhaps they just went in to sleep/rest but that is a point of view issue.

This WHOLE thing is a BIG 'lawn issue'. Everyone has their own views of the situation but no one REALLY wants the other on their lawn about it.

Avoiding the situation entirely would be the best option.

As for the legal aspects of this matter, as mainly Seko and Sunni pointed out, to be honest I'd try to see to it that either sex or minors are banned from the game, just to be on the - more or less - save side.
(Guess what I'd rather see banned )

[Sunni Daez]

Quote:
Again, I am not telling anyone what to do.. tis your own choice. I just felt that the promotion of sex and rape in a game is not such a good thing.


Where does Cantr promote sex and rape? Just because it's possible, doesn't mean it promotes it. I mean, I could rape someone if I wanted to, does that mean the Netherlands promote rape?

I meant the promotion of it in this thread by players... Cantr does not promote it.

Quote:
Writing, is an artform.


Writing about sex isn't?

Never said it wasn't. I just do not think a place that allows it, should allow minors to be involved.

Quote:

Don't think it really will matter... if you sell alcohol to someone under 21 because they had a fake ID and the end up hurting or killing someone.. it still goes back to the one who sold the minor alcohol. Yes, it was a fake ID but no, you should have been able to tell the difference.


Oh? Do you ever take a look at most of those 14 year old girls nowadays? Anyone would think they're older than 18. Like, in Belgium two 14 year olds got married a while back without proving their age.

And what was the end result in that? Who got into trouble for it? Was if anulled or considered not binding? I really don't understand your point here.

Quote:
Yes, young minds are curious.. and they need to be nurtured and fed with knowledge.

So Cantr has apprenticeships and the kids learn about it in a safe way, without AIDS and pregnancies.

And just what do they learn?
There are far more things that can happen than AIDS and pregnancy. Cantr is not a 'learn safe sex' by any means. There are no use of birth control, safe sex, or condems... Sex in cantr, it could be said, promotes the idea that sex when you want to , anywhere you want to, without protection is an acceptable behavior. It does not teach what happens to a 14 year old who suddenly becomes a mother and what happens to all who are involved.. including the child. It does nopt teach the health issues that happens to someone who does contract aids, the effects on thier life. It does not teach about the many other STDs...

Again, I believe sex has no place in Cantr.

If you want to play characters who never have sex, then simply play them as such. Of course, the remote possibility remains that they will be raped,

This is totaly wrong.. it should never be deemed ok to force sex on anyone , written or otherwise.. If this were to happen without the others players permission(more so if the player is a minor).. it truely could end really badly.

As said, if you were prosecuted, and you use the excuse, ' I checked with PD they said the player was not a minor' it could result in the game being prosecuted.. or the owner of the game. I don't know how it would end.. but the publicity of it would surely hurt the game, or draw in the those who are just in search of a new place to cyber.

[Brimstar]

I don't have sex in Cantr, but my characters often do. And just because the player is underage or the same gender as myself doesn't mean that I am having sex with a minor or a person of my gender.

Players seem to forget that they are not their characters, even though they may become emotionally attached to their characters. Just because my character does something, it does not follow that I would do it or even condone it IRL. Furthermore, within the game I have no idea who is playing another character, how old they are, what gender they are, or where they are, and I don't want to know because that could spoil my character's mood.

In a time when young people are sending naked photos of themselves to friends via cell phones I think it's just damned silly to worry about whether they RP sex in a relatively benign and anonymous place like Cantr.

[Sunni Daez]

I don't have sex in Cantr, but my characters often do. And just because the player is underage or the same gender as myself doesn't mean that I am having sex with a minor or a person of my gender.

Players seem to forget that they are not their characters, even though they may become emotionally attached to their characters. Just because my character does something, it does not follow that I would do it or even condone it IRL. Furthermore, within the game I have no idea who is playing another character, how old they are, what gender they are, or where they are, and I don't want to know because that could spoil my character's mood.

In a time when young people are sending naked photos of themselves to friends via cell phones I think it's just damned silly to worry about whether they RP sex in a relatively benign and anonymous place like Cantr.

LOL that will mean absolutely nothing in a court of law! I agree, charris are not the player.. but a judge won't see it that way... just ask one.

In a time when young people are sending naked photos of themselves to friends via cell phones I think it's just damned silly to worry about whether they RP sex in a relatively benign and anonymous place like Cantr.

And those that got caught got into legal trouble!

ORLANDO, Fla. — After his former girlfriend taunted him, Phillip Alpert remembered the nude photos she e-mailed to him while they were dating.

He took revenge with an electronic blast — e-mailing the photos of the 16-year-old girl to more than 70 people, including her parents, grandparents and teachers.

Three days later, Alpert, then 18, was charged with transmitting child pornography. Today Alpert is serving five years of probation for the crime, and he is registered as a sex offender — a label he must carry at least until he is 43.

hmmm seems worth it huh?
need more?

This week, three teenage girls who allegedly sent nude or semi-nude cell phone pictures of themselves, and three male classmates in a western Pennsylvania high school who received them, are charged with child pornography.

In October a Texas eighth-grader spent the night in a juvenile detention center after his football coach found a nude picture on his cell phone that a fellow student sent him.

I think it's just damned silly to worry about whether they RP sex in a relatively benign and anonymous place like Cantr.

Yep, no need to worry huh?

[chase02]

Have to agree with Sunni on this, really you have to outlaw sex OR minors, or you are leaving yourself (as in those running cantr AND those engaged in the activity itself) open to epic legal troubles.

I'm absolutely floored that there is not at the bare minimum a TOS on cantr. It will not rule out legal problems, but at least it outlines what is and is not acceptable and gives you SOME recourse.

[Tamtastic]

Although I don't have a problem with role-playing sex in game, I have to agree with Sunni on the legal aspect. Not only could I not afford to risk it (I'm doing a law degree and hopefully will train to become a solicitor so can definitely not risk getting a criminal record), but the thought that I might be role-playing sex with someone who is under 16 creeps me out.

I couldn't possibly say what would be the bet policy for Cantr, but I just choose not to let any of my characters have sex, so I guess it's all down to personal choice.

[SekoETC]

Just because the US court system is twisted and has forgotten the purpose of justice (which is to define which people are a threat to society and prevent them from doing more harm) doesn't mean that we should stoop in front of them out of fear what might happen. The old farts who support the system will retire and die in a couple of decades and the reasonable young people will gain power. When I went to the US, they had signs that say "buckle up, it's the law". When in fact it say, "buckle up or you'll go through the windshield and fucking DIE if you end up in a crash - just because you're the best driver in the world doesn't mean the others couldn't run into you." That existing mentality can be extended to a lot of things. Don't do this or you'll go to jail, you'll get punished. Someone should look up on which level of morality a child avoids doing harm only out of fear of punishment and not because it's the right thing to do. Actually, never mind, I already looked it up. Read this.

Rather than go to court I would be happy to talk to any player I've sexually offended, minor or not. I think they would mostly be relieved to notice that I'm not like my characters. Seriously do I look like a rapist? So if someone's mommy freaks out that their teenager has been roleplaying with me, they might think otherwise when they see my picture. Most likely I'd look younger than their "kid".

As for the nude pictures case, what I heard in KoL chat was that there were teenagers posting pictures of themselves. If another teenager spread the pictures in revenge then that one definitely deserves to be punished. I can't believe there was like two or three hours of discussion without anyone mentioning how things really were. Or maybe there were two different cases. They talked of someone getting busted for creating and spreading naked images of oneself while under-aged. A teenager sending naked pictures of oneself certainly doesn't belong in a register of sex offenders. If all the people who have done that were busted then the register would most likely lose it's meaning. Even more so if everyone who has been to /b/ had their hard-drives checked. If some guy got busted for having naked pictures of the Simpsons then they might as well bust everyone who has hentai of characters that look under-aged.

[*Wiro]

Sunni, what's the point of posting unrelated cases? All of them are related to CHILD PORN. Sending pictures of naked kids, talking to kids on msn about sex and going to meet them, etc. But none of them are about talking about sex with children, or in this case roleplaying with TEXT. I did a short google and found nothing actually related to this.

I really don't understand what's with all these child porn news quotes you keep posting... :S

Also, the US fails. They lock up people who do silly things and let the seriously dangerous people walk around. There are discriminating laws as well. But that's a bit straying off the subject.

[SekoETC]

To be illegal, the conduct needs to get beyond IM sex chat," says one former prosecutor who worked on child exploitation cases. "Sex talk with a minor is not prosecutable.

Source: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_cyber_sex_ ... or_illegal

That suggests the case would fall if there was no attempt to meet in real life.

However, according to Wisconsin law:

948.11 Exposing a child to harmful material or harmful descriptions or narrations, Class I Felony.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 631AA2hBhR

Edited to add: But I googled for "exposing a child to harmful material" and the law includes the conditions

1. The person knows or reasonably should know that the child
has not attained the age of 18 years. 2. The person has face-to-face contact with the child before or during the communication

So if you haven't seen the person and don't know they are under-aged, they're safe.

Also here's another thing, looks like other people agree that it shouldn't be prosecutable, but apparently the police doesn't understand how the Internet works so arrests might still be made.
http://www.falsely-accused.com/clients/ ... ngs04.html

Specified search to "minor posing as an adult" and got this:
http://forum.freeadvice.com/arrests-sea ... 86914.html

Someone could still check with a lawyer how the case would be if someone engaged in sexual dialog with a minor under the belief that it was an adult, and no pictures were exchanged and there was no attempt to meet in real life.

[joo]

If you want to play characters who never have sex, then simply play them as such. Of course, the remote possibility remains that they will be raped,

This is totaly wrong.. it should never be deemed ok to force sex on anyone , written or otherwise.. If this were to happen without the others players permission(more so if the player is a minor).. it truely could end really badly.

...Any role you can imagine you can play in this game and the challenge is in playing it consistently...

...Cantr II is set in a fairly realistic world...

...The game`s code provides the means to produce physical objects; what you do with those is not (and will not be) coded. No social structure will be coded. No concept of ownership will be coded. No rules or laws will be coded...

[BlueNine]

To be illegal, the conduct needs to get beyond IM sex chat," says one former prosecutor who worked on child exploitation cases. "Sex talk with a minor is not prosecutable.

Source: http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Is_cyber_sex_ ... or_illegal

That suggests the case would fall if there was no attempt to meet in real life.

However, according to Wisconsin law...etc

I'm glad someone actually did the research here as I think more is being made of this than needs to be.

Both charries are pretty much in control throughout anything that happens in game, even rape (if your char is in that unfortunate position and you, as a player, don't want to go along with it. OOC them about it. If they keep going despite PLAYER protests, then report them). RP in general is a team effort (of 2 or more).

I also find it strange that theres so much protest about exposing underagers to sex and not a mention that they're exposed to violence - being able to attack and KILL anyone, especially since death is permanent in this game (as opposed to other rpgs where you respawn)

However I do know that media/lawyers deliberately look away from the kind of rationality we're mentioning here if they think they can get something out of it, and on that basis think Cantr should have some kind of "we are not responsible for actions in game etc" just to cover its own ass.