Iraq feels the liberal way of the west...

[rklenseth]

http://uttm.com/stories/2001/06/15/world/main296944.shtml

Wonderful place. We should all be so lucky as to live there.

This might be American propaganda, David. Haven't you learned anything yet? If it is from an American media then it cannot be trusted and must be a lie.

[As Heaven Turns To Ash]

I think I missed the solution he proposed... What was it?


And about the link: I hope you're not pretending to say there have never been riots in the US.

EDIT:

"Vandalism and pitched street battles have become a regular part of major international meetings in recent years in venues from Seattle to Prague and Nice — and now to the normally peaceful southwestern Swedish coast."

[rklenseth]

I think I missed the solution he proposed... What was it?


And about the link: I hope you're not pretending to say there have never been riots in the US.

EDIT:

"Vandalism and pitched street battles have become a regular part of major international meetings in recent years in venues from Seattle to Prague and Nice — and now to the normally peaceful southwestern Swedish coast."

Whose solutions? Pirog's?

Ah, Seattle....wacky fun. Those were the days. Oh, I mean it wasn't like I was there.

And don't forget the Rodney King Riots...

[As Heaven Turns To Ash]

Yeah, Pirog's...

[rklenseth]

Yeah, Pirog's...

That is what we have been trying to get out of him.

[As Heaven Turns To Ash]

Oh... I misread, then.

"No he clearly says several times that he has stated a solution. A solution that references events that have already past. That is not a solution it is a complaint."

I thought he meant he had given a solution... or something. Sorry.

[Pirog]

Meh>

No he clearly says several times that he has stated a solution. A solution that references events that have already past. That is not a solution it is a complaint.

Well, obviously I don't sit on the answers on how to end all conflicts in the world, Meh. I'm sure you will be able to judge me for that to in some way.

I stated as a solution that Europe and America started to treat the rest of the world as equals, and to perhaps spend the money we now pour into war efforts on rebuilding the third world and writing off the unfair debts they have towards us.
But I'm sorry, I know it doesn't sound as good as riding in there and killing everybody.

Here is what I wrote to be exact:

As with the situation in Israel/Palestine it may have gotten so bad that it is almost impossible to find a solution.
Waging war on everyone that hates USA and Europe could never work.
The west needs to start respecting values that we can't understand, and that people may want to live their lives differently from us.
The money now being spent on wars could be used for writing off old debts to third world countries and to help them without actually gaining anything but their future friendship.
I know it sounds like an utopian dream, but so far neither Europe or USA has tried actually meeting them on equal terms and reaching out a hand in friendship.
We in the west are still exploiting the people in the third world countries in a horrible way, and until that stops we will never be liked or accepted by them.

I'm saying that going on and on and on and on about it does not change anyone's mind. In fact it does the opposite. Whining and whining and whining and baby killers and stuipid americans only emboldens people not to care.

I think you are whining quite alot yourself, mr High & Mighty.

Wonderful place. We should all be so lucky as to live there.

Yes, isn't it ironic that the riot depended partly on Bush visiting Gothenburg?
But mostly the situation escalated because of poor police efforts. Kicking 15 year old girls in the face just for standing in the way didn't prove popular amongst the originally peaceful protesters.
I guess violence didn't work there either...big surprise.

What was your point in bringing it up by the way?
Trying to get a leverage again? What comes next, pointing out spelling errors?

This might be American propaganda, David. Haven't you learned anything yet? If it is from an American media then it cannot be trusted and must be a lie.

No, not propaganda. But the article reflects the truth very badly.
But I'm not saying that is because the media is American...
But the head of the police effort was forced to resign for his poor efforts.
If you would like to hear about it (I don't think you are interested. You just wanted to take another one of those cheap shots you enjoy so much) I could tell you more about the situation, but in another topic.[/quote]

[nitefyre]

I'm going a bit off topic due to the significant uprising that has been preluded with the hotel bombing a few weeks back, and now the recent hideous dragging of American civilians through the streets. http://uttm.com/stories/2003/02/24/iraq/main541815.shtml, I'm having less confidence in how this war is now being fought, I mean common, if you know anywhat of the military organization of the US, when the Marines are sent in, they aren't sent in a peacekeeping operations, they are stabilizers. "In Ramadi, dozens of Iraqis attacked U.S. Marines near the governor's palace late Tuesday, a senior U.S. defense official said in Washington. "A significant number" of U.S. Marines were killed, and initial reports indicate it may be up to a dozen, said the official, speaking on condition of anonymity." This war is turning into a Mogadishu no doubt, and the Anti-Coalition forces know that. But this time, I think we are fortuned to have a Government that'll stay the course, unlike Clinton. I think we were bogging down on the last part of the topic, so hope you don't mind me changing direction.

Yes, both Shi-ite and Sunni's are uprising through out the country, though initially the Shi-ite's were if could be said, for the US. It was a Shi-ite Cleric (AL SADR) who called for the recent round of assaults and setbacks, amongst other Sunni and foreign supporters of the failure of the US.

[Pirog]

I think more Iraqis will turn against the Americans.
In Swedish television the showed pictures of angry Iraqi civilians that had been near death when US helicopters shot missiles at them.

An old woman screamed that she vowed to personally take up arms and fight the Americans. She didn't really look a trained terrorist

Hans Blix said today that the Iraqis are worse off since the Americans defeated Saddam then before.
I find that quite amusing, since I stated pretty much the same thing yesterday and was met by silly remarks. I guess I'm not totally alone with my evil terror supporting ideas...

[rklenseth]

Wasn't taking a cheap shot there, Pirog. You have made your opinion very clear on numerous occasions as to what you think of the American media.

I can't believe you take anything from Hans Blix seriously especially when he was getting money from Saddam and his regime. I wonder if European media even covered that back when it was found out.

I don't think the Iraqis will turn against the Americans. Sunnis hate us because we took out their leader who benefited them all those years. And a few hundred that support that radical Shiite cleric who has assassinated political rivals and bully people to do what he wanted.

And furthermore, you are asking America and the Europe to pay for the mistakes of our ancestors. That is something I totally disagree with. I do believe we need to build up the economies in these regions but not by giving them everything. I am under the philosophy that if you give a man a fish he will feed his family for one night but if you teach the man to fish then he will feed his family for a lifetime.

There was a really good book out once by someone in Latin America and he thought it was rather stupid that America and places in Europe think it is helping them by simply pouring in aide money (that mostly never reaches the people but fills the coffers of their leaders) as well as food and all the rest of the stuff. It helps them on the short term but it doesn't help them on the long term as well as it makes them very dependent on America and Europe.

I think it would be better is if we trade with them and allow them to build up their economies. We can't trust in giving money because most likely it will never get to right the places or people. But trading with them will have the same effect.

The problem with most third world countries are that they are run by greedy individuals or organizations that don't give a damn about the people there. But if we move in and run them out of power then we are sticking our noses in places and then you have all of these people who scream this isn't our business blah, blah, blah. But personally I believe sticking our noses in things is the only way to solve the problem unless there happens to be popular uprising in third world countries and the right people are able to come to power who actually care about their people but that is a very unlikely scenario since the current powers to be have pretty much squeezed their people so much that they don't have anything to fight with or the will to fight.

But if you like to continue to believe that the current leaders in these third world countries will suddenly have a change of heart, a even more unlikely scenario than the one above, then keep believing that. But it isn't going to help any.

[Meh]

You are completly right. I don't know how I ever lived without your wisdom. We are not worthy to share this world with you.

Sorry about the riot thing. I guess that is what highly educated and cultured people do when they are vistied upon by the unwashed uneductated americans.

"The west needs to start respecting values that we can't understand, and that people may want to live their lives differently from us."

What does that have to do with Iraq?

Oh I get it. Like killing and tourturing themselves. OK.

So dear Hans has a touture fetish. Who woulda guessed that?

I will take that this newfound wisdom and start killing fellow countryman today.

Thank you for bringing your wisdom to a poor ignorant savage such as myself.

[rklenseth]

Oh no! I think Meh has lost it. Hurry up before it gets messy like last time. I don't like having to make people disappear after one of Meh's outbursts.

5:00 News the next morning:

Anchor: Our top story today, a man went crazy yesterday, butchering his neighborhood and screaming at the top of his lungs, "We must kill them all. Kill and torture and then some! All of them!" before being shot dead by police officers. An police investigation has come up with some leads as to why this perfectly normal man went crazy. Something that has to do with a website forum where he was well known for debating politics with people.

Hey this would be great advertising for Cantr! We can get some media coverage.

[nitefyre]

Hey this would be great advertising for Cantr! We can get some media coverage.

Any publicity, is good publicity, even if it sacrafices oh so important member of the Programming Dept, which is afterall the best Dept in all of Staff, even though it is staff *coughs* http://www.geocities.com/nitefyre007/Internal/Uniform.htm Sorry Couldn't resist lol, and as always no offense to no particular entity-as I do not put words in people's mouths, though Pirog may attest to that.

[rklenseth]

Are we staff or are we staph?

I always thought we were more like staph.

[Pirog]

Lenseth>

Wasn't taking a cheap shot there, Pirog. You have made your opinion very clear on numerous occasions as to what you think of the American media.

I have never said that you can't trust anything in American media.
It is very natural for a country in war to lose the objectiveness in their media. I have not said it is bad because it is American, it is bad because of the situation you are in.
But you once said that you trusted everything they said in media and that you thought it was rude to question the experienced journalists, so I'm really not expecting you to agree with me here either.

I can't believe you take anything from Hans Blix seriously especially when he was getting money from Saddam and his regime. I wonder if European media even covered that back when it was found out.

Well, if it is the truth I have either managed to miss it or the Swedish media has covered it up. If you could supply me with a link I would like to read it.
I personally have a hard time believing it, mostly because of the fact that his opinion is still highly valued by most people, wich it wouldn't if it got out that he was bribed.

I don't think the Iraqis will turn against the Americans. Sunnis hate us because we took out their leader who benefited them all those years. And a few hundred that support that radical Shiite cleric who has assassinated political rivals and bully people to do what he wanted.

But the situation is very hard to control.
There is a big risk of many civilian lives lost, and therefore the Americans might cause more enemies then they are able to kill.

And furthermore, you are asking America and the Europe to pay for the mistakes of our ancestors. That is something I totally disagree with. I do believe we need to build up the economies in these regions but not by giving them everything. I am under the philosophy that if you give a man a fish he will feed his family for one night but if you teach the man to fish then he will feed his family for a lifetime.

I agree with you on the part where we need to help them rebuild their societies instead of just pouring in money that ends up on some private bank account somewhere.
But it is important that you understand that Europe and America are still exploiting the third world to a great degree. Most third world countries still struggle with huge loans they where forced to take, wich has set them back much.
They don't have time to build up their countries. To be able to pay the rent on time they are forced to sell raw materials to the west, and then we process it and sell it back for a much higher cost.
We are as rich as we are because of this exploitation, and that is the core for much of the hate against Europe and USA.

There was a really good book out once by someone in Latin America and he thought it was rather stupid that America and places in Europe think it is helping them by simply pouring in aide money (that mostly never reaches the people but fills the coffers of their leaders) as well as food and all the rest of the stuff. It helps them on the short term but it doesn't help them on the long term as well as it makes them very dependent on America and Europe.

Again, I totally agree with this.
I'm sorry if it appeared that I was for the "pour in money without making sure how it is used"-model.

I think it would be better is if we trade with them and allow them to build up their economies. We can't trust in giving money because most likely it will never get to right the places or people. But trading with them will have the same effect.

Yes, but as I said earlier the current trade is really nothing else than a scam from the European/American side.
We trick them pretty much in the same scale as when Europeans sold glass pearls to the indians, but in a much larger scale.

The problem with most third world countries are that they are run by greedy individuals or organizations that don't give a damn about the people there.

Well, that is true. But I think most western countries are ruled pretty much in the same way. For example, Bush is backed by the steel and oil industry in USA. Don't you think they are putting preassure on him to back out of the Kyoto-agreement etc?
Most western countries are run partly by great corporations.
In Sweden for example, Volvo has refused to pay the full amount of taxes for several year, threatening with moving out of the country if they are forced to pay full taxes.

But personally I believe sticking our noses in things is the only way to solve the problem unless there happens to be popular uprising in third world countries and the right people are able to come to power who actually care about their people but that is a very unlikely scenario since the current powers to be have pretty much squeezed their people so much that they don't have anything to fight with or the will to fight.

But history has shown that European/American intervention tends to make things worse in the end. A very large part of the brutal dictators around the world were originally backed by Europe or USA, when fighting other dictators.

But if you like to continue to believe that the current leaders in these third world countries will suddenly have a change of heart, a even more unlikely scenario than the one above, then keep believing that. But it isn't going to help any.

No, I don't believe they will change their heart.
But I see them as a result of the structures most third world countries are forced to live after, and until those structures are changed I don't think it will be possible to simply kill them off and try to replace them with democracies.