Character descriptions

[Dudel]

I pretty much agree with everything joo said.

Then what the heck is the problem? Just replace blue for black and pink for white. (Both are natural colors)

[SekoETC]

I disagree but you already know that. I think there should be a poll about this but covering all the options might be difficult.

In fact there has already been a poll about should Cantr looks reflect real world looks, partly deviate from them or completely deviate from them:
http://www.cantr.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2445
The clear majority (66%) voted that they can partly deviate while only two voters said they don't care. But it doesn't cover the freedom of choice aspect so that would require it's own poll. And I think existing characters should be treated separate from future characters due to their history.

[Piscator]

I guess it would be a feasible compromise to avoid entirely uncommon hair colours like blue and green (and leave that to hair dies), but allow slightly overdone versions of natural colours, for example lemon yellow or tomato red.
These colours would be still pretty rare because you would need pure genes to get them.

By the way, if we allow current characters to choose their hair colour theirselves, we will get an excellent poll of which hair colours are desired and in what amount. I think pink or blue genes would be pretty uncommon anyway in the end (I don't know if I would choose them, at least not for my established characters.)

[Gran]

I tried to make a palette that covers the colors I've seen being rp'ed in the game + several taken from hair dye catalogs found online so that it would be diverse enough for people to find something that's at least close enough to what they imagined. If that's not good enough then make another one. Or write a formula for calculating results based on RBG values. I never said it's final or that people would have to use it. It upsets me very much that you would insinuate that.

I didn't meant to offend or make you feel unconfortable. Sorry if I was too dry or anything, I sincerely apologize. I'm just discussing a model, which based mostly on your palette for orientation. I never said it's bad or incomplete, actually I liked it very much. I'm just suggesting things to everyone, myself included.

I'm wondering now into new model of muself, it is idealistic since it is not based on cantr.

As to genes, I'm pretty sure none of my characters would choose innovative ones. They are pretty much conservative or 19th century liberal to do so.

[SekoETC]

Actually I was refering to sanchez when she said

And so what choice do we have to change the colour set you assign to us Seko?

I didn't realize that people might not be able to make the connection. GranAttacker, you were being completely reasonable, but sanchez was making things sound like I was personally limiting people's freedom of choice when in fact I'm only trying to make a compromise between the genetics and the complete freedom supporters.

By the way, if we allow current characters to choose their hair colour theirselves, we will get an excellent poll of which hair colours are desired and in what amount. I think pink or blue genes would be pretty uncommon anyway in the end (I don't know if I would choose them, at least not for my established characters.)

That's a great idea. But how would it be carried out? Would people get a box where they write any color they want, or would there be a predefined set? Maybe a predefined set with an "other (please specify)" would be the best option. And the results wouldn't be visible in game before the results have been processed to define what sort of a palette would be optimal.

I realized that my genes system produces more shades of blue than people would probably like so it's going to need some tweaking. It would be good if people could get at least approximately the color they like, like for example if they wanted dark hair, the lightest they could get was ash blond and they wouldn't be getting any bright colors. Or if someone wanted a redhead then it would range from fiery red to golden brown to strawberry blond. People should only get blue or pink/purple hair if they specifically allow it. I personally don't think I'd feel comfortable playing someone with an extreme hair color, dark red or mahogany is the farthest I would go.

[Dudel]

I'd keep my characters hair colors bound IRL settings mainly becuase don't see them as having odd color hair.

Red
Brown
Blond

Those are the only constraints I have any divergance like Bright fire red or Strawberry blond. (My brain says they are both red) Strawberry blond would still fly with me for blond too but I'm not picky.

And yes Seko it seems that you are trying to 'meet in the middle' with everyone complaining about this and that. You are doing a great job as such as well.

[joo]

I guess it would be a feasible compromise to avoid entirely uncommon hair colours like blue and green (and leave that to hair dies), but allow slightly overdone versions of natural colours, for example lemon yellow or tomato red.
These colours would be still pretty rare because you would need pure genes to get them.

By the way, if we allow current characters to choose their hair colour theirselves, we will get an excellent poll of which hair colours are desired and in what amount. I think pink or blue genes would be pretty uncommon anyway in the end (I don't know if I would choose them, at least not for my established characters.)

That sounds like a good compromise to me. I wouldn't mind such mildly unrealistic colours existing if there was a very small chance of my characters randomly getting them. And if a character does get s colour like that, I wouldn't be devastated because I'd know that that's what some players want.

The thing that needs to be found out is just what hair colours the players want. If I had to put forward a range of hair colours for a vote, I'd choose all the standard human hair colours, personally.

[Doug R.]

If current players choose exotic hair colors, they could simply be nullified in the genetics. So, a person with blue hair wouldn't pass on a gene to a newspawn.

Current players can keep things as they want them, without imposing oddity on new characters.

[SekoETC]

Maybe someone could post a poll in the game itself? I'm not sure who has the authorization for that but I'm sure someone does.

Freedom of choice vs. genetics:

"Option 1. Unlimited freedom of choice: character appearance would be fully customizable by the player. Color options would have to be recorded in the database to ensure that descriptions can be translated for different language groups, but the options would be based on the preferences of the players.

Option 2. Partial freedom of choice: players couldn't pick exact appearance traits for their characters but could give guidelines. For example if the player wishes that their character had dark hair, they might end up getting anything from jet black to medium brown but would have 0% chance of getting a fiery redhead or platinum blonde.

Option 3. No freedom of choice: appearance of characters would be solely based on genetics and random variation.

In all the cases, a player could choose their character(s) to remain without a description if they find the appearance traits offensive or unsuitable."

I think this should be evaluated separately for existing characters and future ones. People might decide that they deserve an equal level of freedom of choice but at least I would vote for extended freedom for existing characters.

Natural vs. unnatural colors

"I would like my characters to have
[] natural hair colors (brown, black, blonde, red)
[] slightly unnatural hair colors (dark red, bluish black, silver, dark purple)
[] glaringly unnatural hair colors (pink, blue, green)
Check all that apply."

"If other people's preferences turned out to differ greatly from yours...
() ...I'd let them play by those preferences just as long as it doesn't affect my characters.
() ...I'd comply to their wishes if they represent the majority, but I expect the same from them if they represent a minority.
() ...then those people are just plain wrong because my system is simply the best, and if something else gets implemented I'll be sure to quit as a protest."

[CantrFreak]

You seem to forget that us Cantrians aren't human, we are Cantrian... which means the same laws that apply to us in real life doesn't have to to our Cantrian counterparts.

Blue hair could be perfectly normal... and really, I don't see why it would matter if your town leader has blue hair or not... that's not going to kill you.

[Gran]

*Warning: long post.

Actually I was refering to sanchez

... I swear, I saw it coming. XD

As to a pool, I think very few people would choose the options that restrain themselves. I think prefer more to create than adapt, at least within a limit when it does not reach obnouxiously (i.e. Fancy background roleplaying, newspawn saying he is Aragorn, son of Arathorn and Fefnir). Possibly because it is easier.

But we cannot leave the community to watch changes in bestiality either, just as an spectator.

Plus, the idea isn't mature yet to be pool'd. The uncertainty of a project about this would put possible supporters or oppositors into doubt. We have only talked about hair until now.

I am a supporter of the idea that the genetic aproach is equal or superior to that of player choice, for a infity of reasons. Besides that, appearance shouldn't interfere with the focus of a character, unless it is the cantrian version of Narcissus or Quasimodo.

Now, back to the model, I would say that RGB like wouldn't be much interesting because it is about light, when it comes to hair, we talk about chemistry.

[Tiamo]

You seem to forget that us Cantrians aren't human, we are Cantrian... which means the same laws that apply to us in real life doesn't have to to our Cantrian counterparts.

Blue hair could be perfectly normal... and really, I don't see why it would matter if your town leader has blue hair or not... that's not going to kill you.

This raises a more fundamental question: do we want Cantr to be mainly based on reality, or do we want Cantr to be based on preferences about interesting game play? Beyond the scope of this discussion though.

In the case of hair color i personally prefer limiting it to 'natural' colors combined with the option of 'dyeing' your hair (in game, as a project or something you can 'wear') if you want another color.

Also i agree with GranAttacker that a full proposal would have to incorporate other physical characteristics too: which characteristics should be described/shown, what options will be available for each trait and how they are to be generated (or chosen, if at all).

[Rebma]

Well of course we'll have to figure out down the road which other characteristics wil be shown, but for now implementing just a hair thing would be the best idea. testing the waters, you know?

I think that the best way to go about this is to let existing players be able to chose their "hair colour" in game (and also be able to choose NOT to choose), and use that to determine which colours to include in the spectrum, and really how much backing this new change would have amongst current players.

Having it be partially random is the best choice we have for the future, because it encompasses everyone who wants to choose, and everyone who wants it random.

Personally, I wouldn't have a problem RP-ing with someone who had bright blue hair, mainly because I am just that open-minded. Who are we to say what is normal or not in cantr right now, especially when we have so much freedom to RP things.

***But, on the other hand, I agree more with Tiamo. The implementation of dying a "natural" hair colour in game would be simple enough. I remember the first time I played cantr, RP-ing a blonde who "dyed" her hair red using tomatoes. It would be simple enough to use existing resources to create dye (blueberries would give you blue/purple, tomatoes-red/orange/pink, spinach-green, coal-black, mud-brown, mushrooms-grey, etc) So if you wanted to dye your hair, you'd travel for the necessary resources, just like we do now if we want different clothing materials.

In fact..that might actually be the best way to do it. Start with "naturals" and create the ability to start a dye project using existing resources, to acheive your desired colour. ..then wear it..Go me.

(P.s - Gran, your words intimidate me. I realize you are saying smart things, even though I sometimes don't fully follow. But thats neither here nor there)

[chase02]

I've been biting my tongue so far but can't any longer...

Plus, the idea isn't mature yet to be pool'd. The uncertainty of a project about this would put possible supporters or oppositors into doubt. We have only talked about hair until now.

I couldn't agree more, GranAttacker.

I love the hair colour charts that Seko(?) came up with, but implementing this involves a whole lot more than that. Need to crawl before you can run, guys..

The main issue here IMHO is, does this help or hinder Cantr?

The concept of Cantr seems to be around near-infinite choice by letting players RP almost anything - the only limitations put on the player are the resources, location, clothing and ability to build only items specified in game. Everything else is up to the player to RP. Limiting hair colour to set choices IMHO erodes Cantr's main 'selling point'.

The main difficulty is not what hair colour to allow, but how to implement hair colour? this is critical.....

I am a supporter of the idea that the genetic aproach is equal or superior to that of player choice, for a infity of reasons. Besides that, appearance shouldn't interfere with the focus of a character, unless it is the cantrian version of Narcissus or Quasimodo.

I see three options here:

* Players choice at character creation: You're going to get a divided player base.. some will love this, some will hate it. It will send a strong message to the players about the style of game Cantr is - if it is presented as a screen when choosing a character name and gender.

* Chosen for you (random - non-genetic): This is more controversial than the "strength" thing seems to be. This could be a killer for much of the player base, I would think. When my pre-conceived fair haired maiden turns out with jet black hair, or worse, purple.. she'd be the first in line to hang herself.

* Chosen for you (genetic): As above, except brings in a whole pile of problems with it. Selected from two characters in the area? (as I previously mentioned.. this would have knock on effects on characters) Selected from two 'parents' who breed a newspawn? (no concept of parents in Cantr currently - contradicts 'spawning') Is the idea of implementing anything genetics based completely out of place in Cantr? (I say yes - strength appears to be randomly selected for you, so why wouldn't hair colour be as well?).. should an entire genetic system be implemented just to generate a hair colour - this makes no sense in terms of database resources, let alone game play!

Now, back to the model, I would say that RGB like wouldn't be much interesting because it is about light, when it comes to hair, we talk about chemistry.

True.. RGB does not make much sense when you aren't displaying a graphical hair colour in-game. Descriptions of hair colour would work just fine, and be more in keeping with the style of Cantr.

Ideally, I'd like to see a notes section where a description could be written (optionally) about your character and changed at any point. Not specified at char creation time though!!! Language would be as per player-selected language for that character, I'd say. Alternatively, one that is private to the player, so I can remind myself of motivation, personality, goals, and physical characteristics of each character. I struggle when trying to realistically play up to 15 distinct characters (not just 'mules').

[SekoETC]

My option 1 would be like, first there's a poll about hair colors and people can write the name of any color they prefer, ranging from just plain "dark" to "sunset gold", or what ever they happen to find suitable, and maybe there would be another optimal text box where they can enter a hexadecimal or ten-based RGB value to specify what they mean with their "sunset gold". Then based on these colors there'll be a palette that's a combination of actual boxes and their text labels. There might be hundreds of colors but I'm pretty sure that most people won't go with the fancy words (at least guys), they'll just write "brown" instead. Another option would be to provide a palette with 10 to 20 predefined options and a "none of the above - please specify" to make it more likely that people who haven't thought about the idea in great detail wouldn't start thinking up something grand just because they're given free hands.

So everyone would get the color they want, although if several people enter approximately the same RGB value with a different label then one of those labels will have to be selected. If after this we decide to stick with the free choice system, newspawns can pick from the palette created based on this poll and they would have a right to suggest extra colors if they can't find a suitable one from the list. But I think that after the existing population has gotten their colors assigned, the partial freedom system should be used for the newspawns of the future, meaning that they can't pick an exact color, just guidelines. This will give room for genetics.

You might notice that with the palette I posted earlier, it's not always obvious if someone has a blue gene or a black gene or if they have a red (orange) gene or a pink gene. So if only one person in town had bright blue hair and another person had bright red hair, and a newspawn spawned with purple hair, it wouldn't necessarily mean that these people were the parents because some of the people with brown hair might have a recessive blue or pink gene. Although since characters wouldn't know how genetics work, the first assumption would be likely, it just wouldn't necessarily be correct.