The Religion Debate Thread

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rklenseth
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Postby rklenseth » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:11 am

Pirog wrote:Lenseth>

But since I don't believe in god I must be wicked, right?
Or do I have a shot at heaven for living a good life without faith? ;)


You have a very good shot at heaven as long as you don't sell your soul or something to Satan. Most of those that go to Hell are those that sell their souls to Satan and God can do nothing to save them.

Most evil people are put in enternal damnation where they still have the chance to save their soul.

Yes, as long as you live a good life without faith you will still have a spot in heaven.
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Lone Wolf
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Postby Lone Wolf » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:17 am

"I don't miss church"

"so church don't miss me" :lol:

Man has been trying to figure out how the universe began for thousands of years. I don't think we will figure it out here :lol: But so far I've seen many good comments and opinions.

I do believe in God, but I'm not going to convince anyone that there is a God. Besides I don't know his plan....Its his plan let him do the work :lol:

Don't forget the other theoray of aliens from another planet, populating our planet ect ect. Some believe that it's proven in the egyptian pyramids.
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Postby Meh » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:20 am

kroner wrote:you are welcomed to call my beliefs whatever suits you.


Heritical! LOL
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Postby kroner » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:36 am

fair enough :)
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Postby grayjaket » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:41 am

Pirog wrote:Jake>

The theory of creation is also strengthened by substantial evidence.


Could you give some examples please?
I really haven't got time to read anything else than the studying material for the course I'm studying :)

Because He said he would....


Hehe, come on :)
You were kidding with that right?


The same evidence evolution is supported by, by looked at from a different viewpoint. I'm not exactly sure what Sho has seen and read, but there is some good stuff out there. There is even one thing against evolutiont(something about dna creating itself, i'm not sure exactly) that has no answer from evolutionists. There are many, many evidences of creation that are just ignored. Sorry that I can't be more specific, I need to study up more on the matter myself, but I have heard all of this, just can't remember it word for word and I don't wanna mess it up :)

And the second thing, he asked me, how do I know they were forgiven by God and I said because God said so....make sense now?
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grayjaket
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Postby grayjaket » Mon Mar 29, 2004 7:59 am

Pirog wrote:
God's punishment takes place primarily after 'death.'


Yes...that is very convenient, because we doubters will never be able to get any evidence in that way.
That is a very common trait in most religions...the way things always tends to happen in a non-visual way.

And the whole concept of faith is belief in something without substantial evidence. I'm sure you'll just call it gullibility, but I'm not here to convert anyone.


Yes, that is the very trouble with religions.
I do very much see it as gullibility, because it would take little effort from a god to once in a while show a sign here and there...just to keep people from killing eachother over whom is wrong or right.

I really hope that god doesn't exist, because if he/she/it does it is a very cynical god who has a huge amount of blood on his/her/it's hands...


Actually, sorry wrong quote but I'm gonna comment on this in a sec, Faith is believing in the unseen. I believe there is evidence all around us of a God. From the complex design of flowers, to the miniature cells that make up our bodies, everything is so well designed and works so perfectly, in my mind, there is no choice but to believe that something designed it...God. Ok, now onto what I was gonna say.

God has shown himself once in awhile. He shows it all the time...I don't think anyone's looking. What you're all looking for is a miracle, a Red Sea parting...but have you ever looked at the small things? The little miracles? The changes in people's lives when they come to God? Anyway, again, I got sidetracked.

As for the second thing, God doesn't have a huge amount of blood on his hands. Well he does, but hey, He's God. I mean, it's like if I created 100 robots, and set them in a little world all for there own. They are in every way inferior to me, dumb, stupid robots. Then I smash one. Would you blame me for smashing my own creation? Sound cruel I know, but we can't comprehend God...really we can't. We are humans. I mean...it's like...well, there's really no comparison vast enough.
I'm not the best example writer...best I can do.

Now as for me and RKL's view difference. I don't believe that those who aren't completely and utterly evil will make it to heaven. They still have transgressed God's law. They have had a perfect opportunity to accept God's savlation. How can they complain if they are STILL punished if they never accepted the forgiveness? Your view is kinda odd...cuz then it's like, what's the point in believing?

Yeah one last thing
Sho> Yeah I know, some of those arguments they have are flimsy, but there are some really really good ones. Just thought I'd say something, since to me, evolutionary theory...is....well, I still can't see how it can be believed, for a number of reasons...which I won't get into here, unless the topic comes up.

:D
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Pirog
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Postby Pirog » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:25 am

trage>

If you do believe that there can be a higher being than you do believe in some sort of religion. Just not meaning a specific one. So technically you do have a religion just not a specified kind.


I don't agree. To have an open mind for just about every solution has nothing to do with faith...we just use our logic to pick the most believable theory and stick with that until a better one turns up.
I see no reason to make a permanent decision, since we don't have enough facts to properly make one yet.

Lenseth>

Yes, as long as you live a good life without faith you will still have a spot in heaven.


I like this Irish version you have faith in. :)

Jake>

And the second thing, he asked me, how do I know they were forgiven by God and I said because God said so....make sense now?


Well, no :)
I understand what you are getting at though, and we probably won't get further than that.

I believe there is evidence all around us of a God. From the complex design of flowers, to the miniature cells that make up our bodies, everything is so well designed and works so perfectly, in my mind, there is no choice but to believe that something designed it...God.


Well, I guess you could see nature as a god.
It just depends on how you want to label it...

God has shown himself once in awhile. He shows it all the time...I don't think anyone's looking. What you're all looking for is a miracle, a Red Sea parting...but have you ever looked at the small things? The little miracles? The changes in people's lives when they come to God? Anyway, again, I got sidetracked.


No, I wouldn't even think a Red Sea parting would be sufficient.
He could give us the courtesy to show himself visually, wave his hand and say "here I am, no stop questioning me and have faith in me". :)

There is no reason to practically force people to believe in you, and then hide so people start to lose faith...it's not logical.

I mean, it's like if I created 100 robots, and set them in a little world all for there own. They are in every way inferior to me, dumb, stupid robots. Then I smash one. Would you blame me for smashing my own creation?


Yes, I would.
But I think a better comparison would be:
If I had 10 children, and they started to behave badly, would anyone blame me if I killed one of them?
If god created me he has a responsibility for me. He gave me free will, so he has no right to punish me if I use that free will in a way that doesn't suit him. If he does exist and does punish people for their actions in life god is a cruel hypocrite, since those actions would be a result of him making a product that doesn't work properly...
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Postby grayjaket » Mon Mar 29, 2004 12:38 pm

Pirog wrote:trage>

If you do believe that there can be a higher being than you do believe in some sort of religion. Just not meaning a specific one. So technically you do have a religion just not a specified kind.


I don't agree. To have an open mind for just about every solution has nothing to do with faith...we just use our logic to pick the most believable theory and stick with that until a better one turns up.
I see no reason to make a permanent decision, since we don't have enough facts to properly make one yet.

Lenseth>

Yes, as long as you live a good life without faith you will still have a spot in heaven.


I like this Irish version you have faith in. :)

Jake>

And the second thing, he asked me, how do I know they were forgiven by God and I said because God said so....make sense now?


Well, no :)
I understand what you are getting at though, and we probably won't get further than that.

I believe there is evidence all around us of a God. From the complex design of flowers, to the miniature cells that make up our bodies, everything is so well designed and works so perfectly, in my mind, there is no choice but to believe that something designed it...God.


Well, I guess you could see nature as a god.
It just depends on how you want to label it...

God has shown himself once in awhile. He shows it all the time...I don't think anyone's looking. What you're all looking for is a miracle, a Red Sea parting...but have you ever looked at the small things? The little miracles? The changes in people's lives when they come to God? Anyway, again, I got sidetracked.


No, I wouldn't even think a Red Sea parting would be sufficient.
He could give us the courtesy to show himself visually, wave his hand and say "here I am, no stop questioning me and have faith in me". :)

There is no reason to practically force people to believe in you, and then hide so people start to lose faith...it's not logical.

I mean, it's like if I created 100 robots, and set them in a little world all for there own. They are in every way inferior to me, dumb, stupid robots. Then I smash one. Would you blame me for smashing my own creation?


Yes, I would.
But I think a better comparison would be:
If I had 10 children, and they started to behave badly, would anyone blame me if I killed one of them?
If god created me he has a responsibility for me. He gave me free will, so he has no right to punish me if I use that free will in a way that doesn't suit him. If he does exist and does punish people for their actions in life god is a cruel hypocrite, since those actions would be a result of him making a product that doesn't work properly...



I wasn't saying nature was a god. I was saying God created nature. Did you read it at all?

Second, that's what faith is all about. God chooses not to show himself visibly. He shows himself through what He does.

Finally, no, that isn't a better comparison. God isn't human. You can't compare a human creating human's to God creating humans. Again, did you read what I said? Sorry if it's a bit harsh, but it looks like you didn't read what I said very well....
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Postby new.vogue.nightmare » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:08 pm

Why would God not show himself? Because it's entirely too easy to believe in something when it's right in front of you. God tests our faith constantly to find who's truly faithful.
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Postby The Hunter » Mon Mar 29, 2004 2:51 pm

So, god wants us to be "Naive"?
He never showed himself. How can one expect from people they believe what they never saw, or never seen proven? It'd be to easy to believe in satan, or any other (demi) God aswell. But that's wrong, but equally justified without God showing himself.

Second, that's what faith is all about. God chooses not to show himself visibly. He shows himself through what He does.

So, what does he do? What we know of?

For all we know, the jews might be right and there never was a Jezus. Or buddhist were to be right, or the old Greeks. Or the animmist cultures. We might be punished for being gullible and believing in "God".
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Pirog
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Postby Pirog » Mon Mar 29, 2004 3:02 pm

I wasn't saying nature was a god. I was saying God created nature. Did you read it at all?


I wasn't saying that you see nature as god.
I'm just saying that the incredible force of nature, with it's complex systems and ability to adapt to new environments can be seen as some sort devine power.

Second, that's what faith is all about. God chooses not to show himself visibly. He shows himself through what He does.


Well, that hasn't gone past anyone I think.
But don't you question why he does these tests of faith?
For a non-believer these tests seem like a bad excuse for lack of evidence...

Finally, no, that isn't a better comparison. God isn't human. You can't compare a human creating human's to God creating humans. Again, did you read what I said? Sorry if it's a bit harsh, but it looks like you didn't read what I said very well....


I think answers like "you can't compare god to a human" and "god works in mysterious ways" are arguments that should be avoided in a constructive discussion. They do not lead to anything else than dismissal of questions you find hard to answer...
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Postby mrsE » Mon Mar 29, 2004 10:57 pm

new.vogue.nightmare wrote:Why would God not show himself? Because it's entirely too easy to believe in something when it's right in front of you. God tests our faith constantly to find who's truly faithful.


That sounds like an insecure girlfriend.
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Postby new.vogue.nightmare » Mon Mar 29, 2004 11:10 pm

mrsE wrote:
new.vogue.nightmare wrote:Why would God not show himself? Because it's entirely too easy to believe in something when it's right in front of you. God tests our faith constantly to find who's truly faithful.


That sounds like an insecure girlfriend.


Never thought of it that way...hmm, maybe I'm dating God incarnate! :lol:
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Postby grayjaket » Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:54 am

Pirog wrote:

Second, that's what faith is all about. God chooses not to show himself visibly. He shows himself through what He does.


Well, that hasn't gone past anyone I think.
But don't you question why he does these tests of faith?
For a non-believer these tests seem like a bad excuse for lack of evidence...

Finally, no, that isn't a better comparison. God isn't human. You can't compare a human creating human's to God creating humans. Again, did you read what I said? Sorry if it's a bit harsh, but it looks like you didn't read what I said very well....


I think answers like "you can't compare god to a human" and "god works in mysterious ways" are arguments that should be avoided in a constructive discussion. They do not lead to anything else than dismissal of questions you find hard to answer...


Yeah, it seems that way, so it is effective. I see ample evidence in the world around me, and my life, to know God exists....it's all where you're looking I suppose...And why wouldn't God test our faith? BTW God did show himself. The Old Testament clearly states that...as does the New. He doesn't anymore. I know what you'll say, stuff like, don't use the Bible, or isn't that convenient? Well, yeah. Not much else I can say about that. It's what I believe.

Why should those answers be avoided? The God I believe in, is infinite. Man is finite. Since we're discussing God, why is it wrong for me to say that in answer to your question? I'm already arguing God exists right? Did that make sense?
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Postby trage » Tue Mar 30, 2004 12:56 am

Don't make jokes about god please :(.

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